From lpetrovick at co.wake.nc.us Mon Jan 1 01:01:45 2007 From: lpetrovick at co.wake.nc.us (lpetrovick at co.wake.nc.us) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 01:01:45 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Larry M Petrovick/CDS/Wake County is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 12/20/2006 and will not return until 01/02/2007. I will respond to your message when I return on 09/17/06 From wrenchwench at blast.com Tue Jan 2 13:46:02 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:46:02 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fwd: CCCC Sustainable Farming Registration is Tomorrow! References: <453AE6DA002F7140@scc151.its.state.nc.us> (added by postmaster@ncmail.net) Message-ID: <255F83AE-C95F-4F05-BFB7-9727D612B825@blast.com> Begin forwarded message: > > > Spring Semester classes at CCCC's Sustainable Farming Program in > Pittsboro: > > Open (in-person) registration for curriculum courses is Wednesday, > January > 3rd at the CCCC Pittsboro. > > You may also call (542-6495 ext. 223) and register for any of the > following > Continuing Education courses: > > Comparing Sustainable Farming Systems > Visits to local farms will form the basis for this course. Students > will > have the opportunity to participate in planned group activities on > different > farms. Individual farmers will share the particulars of their farming > operation with the visiting students. The students will work with > the lead > instructor to synthesize a comparison of local farming systems. > Recommended > for interns, those ready to begin their own farm business and anyone > interested in the details of local farming operations. Emphasis > will be on > vegetable production, but tours will also include fruits, cut > flowers, herbs > and livestock. Monday, 1:30- 5:30 pm, 2/19/07 to 4/30/07, Doug Jones > > Growing Organic Vegetables > This course will present the fundamentals of organic vegetable > growing and > offer hands-on training in the most important skills involved. Grow, > harvest, and utilize a variety of vegetables organically, learn about > irrigation installation and season extension structures. Those > interested in > organic certification for their farm and selling products both > wholesale and > retail should also take Organic Farming (see below). Tuesday, > 1/23/07 to > 3/13/07, 6 to 9 pm, Doug Jones > > Organic Farming > This six week intensive course is for individuals considering > starting a > commercial organic vegetable farm. Students will learn the > components of a > farm business plan, farm design and infrastructure, evaluating and > amending > soils, biological pest, disease, and weed management, record keeping, > organic certification, harvesting and marketing. Consisting of > class and > field time, students will gain hands on practical experience in > planting and > harvesting organic vegetables. Great follow-up to the Growing Organic > Vegetables course (see above) for those interested in market > gardening. > Tuesday, 3/20/07 to 4/24/07, 6 to 9 pm, Tony Kleese > > Wild Edible and Medicinal Plants - Field Study > The focus of this field study will be locating, identifying, > approaching, > collecting and marketing edible and medicinal plants. Frequent > field trips > to local areas for identification and sustainable harvest of native > plants > are planned as part of the learning experience. Learn how to > explore herb > habitats and communities, and discover ways to open up to this > healing, > nurturing, and renewing force. Most of the class will take place > outdoors, > so come dressed accordingly. Students should bring a notebook > suitable for > use outdoors. Thursday, 2 to 5 pm, 1/18/07 to 3/15/07. Will Endres > > Wild Edible and Medicinal Plants > Herbalist and Wild Crafter Will Endres shares his more than thirty > years of > experience in the gathering and preparation of wild herbs for > personal use > and sale. Learn how to wisely integrate plants into your daily > life. This is > an interactive course where you will be given the opportunity to > ask all of > your herbal questions. The preparation of herbs for use by drying, > and by > making fluid extracts will be covered. This course complements the > Field > Study class, but neither is a pre-requisite. Thursday, 6 to 8 pm, > 1/18/07 to > 3/15/07. Will Endres > > Workshop on Cheese-Making, February 6, 2007 -Celebrity Dairy-more > details > soon! > > Interested in sheep, grass-based livestock production and > understanding > meats? Please let us know; we'd like to offer short courses in > these areas. > Call Robin at 919-542-6495 ext. 229 > > > Sustainable Building > Additional courses available, including; How to Build a House, > Interior/Exterior Trim and Basic Residential Construction with and > Alternative Building Emphasis, see www.cccc.edu for more info on > Certificates in Green Building > > Carpentry, Electrical and Plumbing > Students will learn the fundamentals for basic house construction or > remodeling work from experienced builder, teacher and farmer Kevin > Meehan. > Topics covered include framing, cabinetry and trim, stairs, wiring, > drain > lines, the NC building code, and hot/cold supply lines with an > emphasis on > sustainable and low impact building techniques. Excellent course > for those > new to the construction trades. Tuesday, 1/16/07 to 4/3/07, 7-9 pm, > Kevin > Meehan > > Renewable Energy > Coming soon to CCCC, Pittsboro, a Certificate in Biofuels - stay > tuned for > more details! > > Intro to Biofuels - The science and technology of converting diesel > engines > to using alternative fuels, and the history of why this technology > is not > already common knowledge. This class will have a hands-on portion > and will > specifically address the use of alternative energy as part of > sustainable > agriculture operations1/22/07 to 4/16/07 - 6:00 -9:00 pm > > Straight Vegetable Oil - Learn about how to convert a diesel engine > to run > on clean, renewable vegetable oil instead of expensive, highly toxic > petroleum products. 1/23/07 to 2/27/07 - 6:00 -9:00 pm, Johnny Frye > > Diesel Technology - 3/6/07 to 4/10/07 - 6:00 -9:00 pm, Johnny Frye > > Robin Kohanowich > Coordinator, The Sustainable Farming Program > CCCC > 764 West Street > Pittsboro, NC 27312 > > -- > Debbie Roos > Agricultural Extension Agent > Organic and Sustainable Agriculture > North Carolina State University > North Carolina Cooperative Extension > Chatham County Center > Growing Small Farms Website: > http://chatham.ces.ncsu.edu/growingsmallfarms > Post Office Box 279 > Pittsboro, NC 27312 > Email: debbie_roos at ncsu.edu > Phone: 919.542.8202 Fax: 919.542.8246 > From wrenchwench at blast.com Wed Jan 3 08:21:19 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:21:19 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fwd: NC Powerdown Triangle Peak Oil Group January Meetup next Wednesday References: <17336870.1167828680116.JavaMail.root@admin.meetup.com> Message-ID: <7B9C18FE-7E9B-4211-A6BB-C65F502A64A9@blast.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: Stephen Hren > Date: January 3, 2007 7:51:20 AM EST > To: rachel at biofuels.coop > Subject: NC Powerdown Triangle Peak Oil Group January Meetup next > Wednesday > Reply-To: themudranch at yahoo.com > > > The meeting will be held at Arcadia in Carrboro at 7:30pm on > Wednesday, Jan. 10th. There will be no meeting in Raleigh due to > lack of attendance. > > Dr. Paul Aaron, a poet and accupuncturist, will introduce us to NC > Plenty, a group that has created a local currency here in the > piedmont to encourage relocalization of our economy. Afterwards > we'll have a general discussion on relocalization ideas and what we > can to do to move towards a more compact and sustainable economy. > > Please note that this meeting will begin half an hour early, so > please make an effort to be there by 7:30. > > Hope you can make it! > > Thanks to Abraham for arranging this meeting! Several NC Powerdown > members have been stepping up to the plate to arrange presentations > and film screenings lately, including Mike and Ari, and I just want > to express my thanks for their help. If any other members have any > other ideas for presentations, please contact me so we can set > something up. More member participation will ensure that NC > Powerdown survives into the future and remains a resource for our > community's energy descent. > > Directions to Arcadia in Carrboro NC. > > Call the Arcadia Common's > house > if you > get lost. 960-5007. > From the South: > Take 15-501/54W around Chapel Hill. 15-501 will head south to > Pittsboro, thus > stay on 54W. Soon 54W will pass Carrboro Plaza on the left and > a US > Post > Office on the right. There will be a light here. Go up the hill > to the > next > light and turn right onto Old Fayetteville Rd. You will go past > McDougle > School. Turn right at the light on Hillsborough Rd. Take the > second > left on > Barington Hills Road. Follow the road through the stop sign and > down > the > hill. This road turns into Circadian Way which is the entrance > to > Arcadia. > Follow the road around the curves. Parking is along the road in > the > back (it > is obvious). Unmarked parking spots are fair game. There is > also > plenty of > extra parking in the NorthWest corner. Please don't drive down > the > also > paved fire lanes into the community > Whether you're coming, can't make it, or aren't sure?RSVP NOW: > > > > To visit NC Powerdown Triangle Peak Oil Group, go here: http:// > oilawareness.meetup.com/216/ > > To be sure your Meetup emails make it to your inbox, add > *info at meetup.com* to your address book. > > To unsubscribe or update your Meetup email preferences, visit your > account page: http://www.meetup.com/account/ > > Questions? You can email customer service at: support at meetup.com > > Meetup Customer Service, 632 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 USA > From john.bonitz at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 11:22:57 2007 From: john.bonitz at gmail.com (John Bonitz) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:22:57 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] tracking costs of biodiesel blends Message-ID: <84a57a420701030822x45bb4368hfbb55a3019664192@mail.gmail.com> Hi Tom, It's an interesting problem you pose. I think Mark is right in suggesting that it's a difficult task. I'd go a little farther and say maybe it's not worth the effort. If price is a foremost concern, I wonder if this might be a bad idea. I mean, I may be wrong but I do not believe there is any way (under current economics) to "sell" biodiesel blends on simple economics. And for a company to make a committment to renewable energy of any kind, there needs to be serious top-down ownership of the project. If the boss doesn't "get" that a) it's the right thing to do because of local air pollution, human health, the global environment, national security, and other "externalities," and b) it could be a marketing advantage, ...then it's probably not worth a whole lot of effort. I don't mean to be negative. I hope Anne Tazewell or Tobin Freid or others will weigh-in with more encouraging perspectives. For instance, I believe there are anecdotal reports of decreased maintenance costs with fleets running biodiesel blends. But I think the preponderance of conventional economics do not point towards the decision you are proposing. So it seems to me to be an uphill battle. Better to take the high ground instead of slogging up-slope. For example, you and your colleagues might pitch-in together to buy your boss a copy of "An Inconvenient Truth." Or if he's a reader, maybe Heinberg's book "The Party's Over." Best wishes, John -- John Bonitz Silk Hope, NC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From markj.ambrose at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 12:14:25 2007 From: markj.ambrose at gmail.com (Mark J. Ambrose) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:14:25 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] tracking costs of biodiesel blends In-Reply-To: <84a57a420701030822x45bb4368hfbb55a3019664192@mail.gmail.com> References: <84a57a420701030822x45bb4368hfbb55a3019664192@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <459BE471.3030708@gmail.com> One more thought on price: If you can convince the boss that using B20 is a good idea and want to get it in the least expensive way, one price comparison that might be worthwhile is that of buying B20 at the pump vs. buying B100 (possibly in bulk) and splash blending with petro-diesel down to B-20. I do this calculation mentally whenever I think of stopping at a commercial B20 station. If the B20 price is too high relative to the current prices of B0 and B100, I instead opt for B0, buying just enough to get me by until I can make it to a coop pump to fill with B100. Usually, around here B20 closely tracks what I would pay splash blending, but occasionally it will be as low as B0 or very high relative to splash blending. -- Mark John Bonitz wrote: > Hi Tom, > > It's an interesting problem you pose. I think Mark is right in > suggesting that it's a difficult task. I'd go a little farther and > say maybe it's not worth the effort. > > If price is a foremost concern, I wonder if this might be a bad idea. > I mean, I may be wrong but I do not believe there is any way (under > current economics) to "sell" biodiesel blends on simple economics. > And for a company to make a committment to renewable energy of any > kind, there needs to be serious top-down ownership of the project. > > If the boss doesn't "get" that > a) it's the right thing to do because of local air pollution, human > health, the global environment, national security, and other > "externalities," and > b) it could be a marketing advantage, > > ...then it's probably not worth a whole lot of effort. > > I don't mean to be negative. I hope Anne Tazewell or Tobin Freid or > others will weigh-in with more encouraging perspectives. For > instance, I believe there are anecdotal reports of decreased > maintenance costs with fleets running biodiesel blends. But I think > the preponderance of conventional economics do not point towards the > decision you are proposing. So it seems to me to be an uphill battle. > > Better to take the high ground instead of slogging up-slope. > > For example, you and your colleagues might pitch-in together to buy > your boss a copy of "An Inconvenient Truth." Or if he's a reader, > maybe Heinberg's book "The Party's Over." > > Best wishes, > > John > From wrenchwench at blast.com Thu Jan 4 09:17:19 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 09:17:19 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Sustainable Biodiesel Summit Message-ID: <87B13B2F-9A9E-4DAF-B645-1FDAAE95B9B0@blast.com> Join us at the Sustainable Biodiesel Summit in San Antonio, TX this Feb. 4 This will be the 4th year that we are gathering together to share good information with each other about growing the biodiesel industry with respect to the communities it serves. If you are doing anything on the community scale concerning biodiesel, this is the national conference for you to attend. Sustainability is part of the biofuel discussion now and there are exciting developments around the corner. Come join your partners from across the country and find out how you can help each other and do the work you're doing back in your community better. We will all be staying together at the El Tropicano on the Riverwalk in San Antonio ? which in and of itself is worth the journey. Last years' participants said it was one of the best conferences they had attended ? packed with good solid information ? and still one of the best benefits was having a room full of like-minded folks who are also working the industry that you could turn to and reflect with. Register now for the best deals! Conference is $100 until midnight Monday Jan. 22, 07 Registration includes full day of conference, and meals for the day ? Note that Lunch and dinner will be local organic cuisine! After Jan. 22 the price for both registration and the hotel go up. $115 registration until Feb. 1 $150 registration after Feb. 1/ on-site. For hotel reservations please register as part of the Sustainable Biodiesel Summit. You can call the toll free reservation number is (866) 293-1842 or email at reservations at eltropicanohotel.com. Rooms are $119 until midnight Jan. 22, 2007. More conference information is available at http://sustainable-biodiesel.org/ From JKoehler at rsu.edu Thu Jan 4 14:20:30 2007 From: JKoehler at rsu.edu (Jeri Koehler) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 13:20:30 -0600 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Testing biodiesel batches Message-ID: <26AF74286FCA14429EA92AD72A3276220403FDB0@rsufsmail.rsu.edu> I'm new to the group and am wondering how often you test your batches of biodiesel and what you test for.? Do you do the ASTM D6751 every time or just the first time?? Do you follow-up with a free and total glycerin test (ASTM D6584) every so often to make sure you're on track? Thank you, Jeri Koehler From biodiesel at yovo.info Thu Jan 4 16:46:59 2007 From: biodiesel at yovo.info (Jurgen Henn) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 16:46:59 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Testing biodiesel batches In-Reply-To: <26AF74286FCA14429EA92AD72A3276220403FDB0@rsufsmail.rsu.edu> References: <26AF74286FCA14429EA92AD72A3276220403FDB0@rsufsmail.rsu.edu> Message-ID: <459D75D3.9020105@yovo.info> Jeri, are you referring to homebrew operations, or to the coop's production operation? As far as my homebrew goes, I test with the PHlip test once per batch (also recommended if you purchase biodiesel). Plus regular visual, smell, taste :) tests ... Jurgen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jurgen Henn 2002 Jetta TDI 40/50 MPG on biodiesel http://words.yovo.info/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeri Koehler wrote: > I'm new to the group and am wondering how often you test your batches of biodiesel and what you test for. Do you do the ASTM D6751 every time or just the first time? Do you follow-up with a free and total glycerin test (ASTM D6584) every so often to make sure you're on track? > > Thank you, > > Jeri Koehler > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From wrenchwench at blast.com Thu Jan 4 21:35:44 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 21:35:44 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Testing biodiesel batches In-Reply-To: <26AF74286FCA14429EA92AD72A3276220403FDB0@rsufsmail.rsu.edu> References: <26AF74286FCA14429EA92AD72A3276220403FDB0@rsufsmail.rsu.edu> Message-ID: <131AA2F3-CD6F-4348-8819-9E56A8C987CD@blast.com> Dear Jeri, If biodiesel fuel is produced for sale as on-road fuel, it should meet ASTM D6751. For a list of quality for homebrew fuel tests and further links to information on ASTM D6751: http://snipurl.com/16md7 Good luck, Rachel On Jan 4, 2007, at 2:20 PM, Jeri Koehler wrote: > I'm new to the group and am wondering how often you test your > batches of biodiesel and what you test for. Do you do the ASTM > D6751 every time or just the first time? Do you follow-up with a > free and total glycerin test (ASTM D6584) every so often to make > sure you're on track? > > Thank you, > > Jeri Koehler > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From dentonconrad at netzero.net Sat Jan 6 16:35:37 2007 From: dentonconrad at netzero.net (Denton Conrad) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 16:35:37 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fuel demand may jolt corn market Message-ID: <45A01629.1060400@netzero.net> Fuel demand may jolt corn market - http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/528896.html From hogarth at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 16:15:41 2007 From: hogarth at gmail.com (Susan Hogarth) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:15:41 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] [Democracy4NC] Electric Car, Revisited In-Reply-To: <45A2AA5B.7030606@GSHudson.com> References: <45A2AA5B.7030606@GSHudson.com> Message-ID: <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> On 1/8/07, G. S. Hudson quoted: > > GM Introduces Plug-In Electric Car > > By Sholnn Freeman > DETROIT, Jan. 7 -- General Motors Chairman G. Richard Wagoner Jr. on Sunday unveiled an innovative prototype, the Chevrolet Volt -- a plug-in vehicle that derives its power primarily from electricity ... I think they mis-spelled 'coal, natural gas, and nuclear fission'. > ... > GM hasn't given a date when consumers can buy the Volt because the advanced lithium-ion batteries needed to power the vehicle -- similar to technology used in cellphones -- are still years from widespread use in automobiles. Translation: "We aren't really doing a damned thing, but we thought we'd let our designers draw some pretty pictures and issue a press release that makes us seem enviro-friendly. Then we'll blame non-delivery on the battery guys." Why don't they just come out with some more diesel cars - or veggie/diesels? THAT would be an interesting hybrid - and it's technology that is already working! > Still, Wagoner and other GM executives have pledged to give the electric-car technology high priority within the company's massive product development operation. Yawn. Electric cars that come with a solar power generating carport would be a step forward. Plug-in cars that draw electricity from the grid are probably a step BACKwards. > ... > The world's auto executives meeting here at the Detroit auto show say that any big push into alternative vehicles will have to come from the automakers themselves. The executives said it isn't clear yet what role Washington will play under the new Democratic-controlled Congress. Some Democrats have proposed higher federal fuel economy standards. Wagoner reacted strongly to calls from Washington lawmakers for government-mandated increases to as high as 40 miles per gallon from the current level of 27.5 mpg for passenger cars, with a lower level for trucks. > > "That's simply impossible," he said. OK, I'm a Libertarian (I know that will shock many of you:) and have little use for government fuel-economy mandates, but this guy is so full of BS it makes me much more sympathetic to the pro-mandate crowd. Of COURSE it's POSSIBLE. Over ten YEARS ago I was driving an inexpensive, eprfectly comfortable car that got 50MPG. It's not rocket science. What a bozo! > ... > GM put its electric-car plans back on track after being stung by the rising gas prices after Hurricane Katrina in 2005. Higher gas prices ended the boom in sales of large SUVs, which have supported the Detroit automakers. ... Bless the market! If the auto market was not so *regulated* (thansk to the collusion of government and big business) as to keep new small lean innovative auto makers out of the idustry, we'd *easily* be seeing 70+ MPG vehicles. The truth is that excessive regulations - written in large part by big business to keep small competitors from entering the field, along with the naive complicity of the for-the-children crowd - have allowed the large auto companies to maintain their stranglehold on the American auto industry. -- Susan Hogarth http://www.colliething.com From richmason at mindspring.com Mon Jan 8 16:26:59 2007 From: richmason at mindspring.com (Rich Mason) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 00:26:59 +0300 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <45A2AA5B.7030606@GSHudson.com> <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5619BEE5-9262-4C85-AF89-7E2C28650361@mindspring.com> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just experienced an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to ULSD fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be a problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss on the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will rebuild the pump for us. Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a larger sample comment. best, Rich Mason From markj.ambrose at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 17:58:13 2007 From: markj.ambrose at gmail.com (Mark J. Ambrose) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 17:58:13 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] [Democracy4NC] Electric Car, Revisited In-Reply-To: <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <45A2AA5B.7030606@GSHudson.com> <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A2CC85.1090709@gmail.com> I will address just one technical point in your post. It is arguable that plug-in cars that draw electricity from the grid are actually a big step forward for several reasons: 1) Renewable sources of electric power, such as wind or woody biomass, are much closer to being price competetive with fossil fuels than most renewable automobile fuels are. 2) The current electric power grid operates with essentially no storage (i.e. batteries) in the network, so power companies are always trying to juggle things to match supply and demand. Some power generating facilities, such as natural gas plants, are easy to turn off and on. Some, such as nuclear, are expensive to turn off and on. Some, such as wind, require that you take it when available (use it or lose it). Power companies also need to build infrastructure to meet peak daytime demand. If folks tend to plug in their cars overnight, when demand for electricity is low, it will probably not require additional generating capacity and might make it easier to integrate sources such as wind into the network. 3) Shifting energy usage from gasoline (petroleum) to fossil fuel derived electricity (coal) doesn't improve anything in terms of the environment, but it is a geopolitical improvement because we have large domestic supplies of coal but very limited supplies of oil. So we will still be destroying the environment, but at least we'll be less likely to fight wars to insure the oil supply needed to do it. -- Mark Susan Hogarth wrote: >On 1/8/07, G. S. Hudson quoted: > > >>GM Introduces Plug-In Electric Car >> >>By Sholnn Freeman >>DETROIT, Jan. 7 -- General Motors Chairman G. Richard Wagoner Jr. on Sunday unveiled an innovative prototype, the Chevrolet Volt -- a plug-in vehicle that derives its power primarily from electricity ... >> >> > >I think they mis-spelled 'coal, natural gas, and nuclear fission'. > > > >>... >>GM hasn't given a date when consumers can buy the Volt because the advanced lithium-ion batteries needed to power the vehicle -- similar to technology used in cellphones -- are still years from widespread use in automobiles. >> >> > >Translation: "We aren't really doing a damned thing, but we thought >we'd let our designers draw some pretty pictures and issue a press >release that makes us seem enviro-friendly. Then we'll blame >non-delivery on the battery guys." > >Why don't they just come out with some more diesel cars - or >veggie/diesels? THAT would be an interesting hybrid - and it's >technology that is already working! > > > >>Still, Wagoner and other GM executives have pledged to give the electric-car technology high priority within the company's massive product development operation. >> >> > >Yawn. Electric cars that come with a solar power generating carport >would be a step forward. Plug-in cars that draw electricity from the >grid are probably a step BACKwards. > > > >>... >>The world's auto executives meeting here at the Detroit auto show say that any big push into alternative vehicles will have to come from the automakers themselves. The executives said it isn't clear yet what role Washington will play under the new Democratic-controlled Congress. Some Democrats have proposed higher federal fuel economy standards. Wagoner reacted strongly to calls from Washington lawmakers for government-mandated increases to as high as 40 miles per gallon from the current level of 27.5 mpg for passenger cars, with a lower level for trucks. >> >>"That's simply impossible," he said. >> >> > >OK, I'm a Libertarian (I know that will shock many of you:) and have >little use for government fuel-economy mandates, but this guy is so >full of BS it makes me much more sympathetic to the pro-mandate crowd. >Of COURSE it's POSSIBLE. Over ten YEARS ago I was driving an >inexpensive, eprfectly comfortable car that got 50MPG. It's not rocket >science. What a bozo! > > > >>... >>GM put its electric-car plans back on track after being stung by the rising gas prices after Hurricane Katrina in 2005. Higher gas prices ended the boom in sales of large SUVs, which have supported the Detroit automakers. ... >> >> > >Bless the market! If the auto market was not so *regulated* (thansk to >the collusion of government and big business) as to keep new small >lean innovative auto makers out of the idustry, we'd *easily* be >seeing 70+ MPG vehicles. The truth is that excessive regulations - >written in large part by big business to keep small competitors from >entering the field, along with the naive complicity of the >for-the-children crowd - have allowed the large auto companies to >maintain their stranglehold on the American auto industry. > > > From shiftlink at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 17:51:54 2007 From: shiftlink at gmail.com (Cameron Conover) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:51:54 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] [Democracy4NC] Electric Car, Revisited In-Reply-To: <45A2CC85.1090709@gmail.com> References: <45A2AA5B.7030606@GSHudson.com> <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> <45A2CC85.1090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c758e6d0701081451oe0643a9w8a9bb7d1cf96c62b@mail.gmail.com> > > 3) Shifting energy usage from gasoline (petroleum) to fossil fuel > derived electricity (coal) doesn't improve anything in terms of the > environment, but it is a geopolitical improvement because we have large > domestic supplies of coal but very limited supplies of oil. So we will > still be destroying the environment, but at least we'll be less likely > to fight wars to insure the oil supply needed to do it. > > -- Mark > > Well, the war will be cheaper, because it will be in West Virginia instead of Iraq. Do we really want to tear down an entire ecosystem and mountain range and pollute an entire community just for energy? From hogarth at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 18:09:42 2007 From: hogarth at gmail.com (Susan Hogarth) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 18:09:42 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] [Democracy4NC] Electric Car, Revisited In-Reply-To: <45A2CC85.1090709@gmail.com> References: <45A2AA5B.7030606@GSHudson.com> <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> <45A2CC85.1090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3889aa560701081509r2797f479j63c58a34ee191a5f@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Mark! A few comments, below. On 1/8/07, Mark J. Ambrose wrote: > I will address just one technical point in your post. It is arguable > that plug-in cars that draw electricity from the grid are actually a big > step forward for several reasons: > > 1) Renewable sources of electric power, such as wind or woody biomass, > are much closer to being price competetive with fossil fuels than most > renewable automobile fuels are. Possibly. However, they seem to be less ready for prime time (that is, deployment NOW) than renewable fuels. As I said, I'd love to a see an electric car marketed along with a solar carport. In fact, that would be a cool market niche if plugin cars ever do become widely available. "Take your car off-grid! Protect its finish form the sun while you harvest the sun's energy for driving!" What fun the maketing for that would be! :) > 2) The current electric power grid operates with essentially no storage > (i.e. batteries) in the network ... If folks tend to plug in their cars overnight, when demand for > electricity is low, it will probably not require additional generating > capacity and might make it easier to integrate sources such as wind into > the network. ... That is an excellent point. I tend to let my hatred of the centralized power generation and distribution model blind me to the benefits of a grid system. It will be interesting to see what impact decentralizing generation will have on distribution. Will those who generate power to put into the grid eventually be charged a 'grid tax' for infrastructure? Or will localized distribution eb combined with localized generation for a leaner (in my opinion) system? -- Susan Hogarth http://www.colliething.com From moldylocks at nc.rr.com Mon Jan 8 21:37:14 2007 From: moldylocks at nc.rr.com (Wayne Edmonds) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 21:37:14 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <5619BEE5-9262-4C85-AF89-7E2C28650361@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <009b01c73397$12736860$a3de4147@wedmondshome> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP fail (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few tanks. I had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and then it finally failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could not get it to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on TDICLUB.com, and the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com (http://www.dieselgeek.com/TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm), I was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little over an hour. Parts total: $6.16 I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly happened when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the forums on tdiclub.com to see more stories. -Wayne. -----Original Message----- From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of Rich Mason Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM To: BIG Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just experienced an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to ULSD fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be a problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss on the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will rebuild the pump for us. Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a larger sample comment. best, Rich Mason _______________________________________________ Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From biodiesel at yovo.info Mon Jan 8 22:13:09 2007 From: biodiesel at yovo.info (Jurgen Henn) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:13:09 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] homebrew hydrogen fuel?! In-Reply-To: <3889aa560701081509r2797f479j63c58a34ee191a5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <45A2AA5B.7030606@GSHudson.com> <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> <45A2CC85.1090709@gmail.com> <3889aa560701081509r2797f479j63c58a34ee191a5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A30845.1040004@yovo.info> Susan, et al, the folks at United Nuclear have a working prototype of a system a bit like what you're talking about, but it's even cooler because it's centered on Hydrogen from solar or wind. They are developing kits to convert gasoline engines to burn such renewable, "homebrew" hydrogen. http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm IF this is for real, they might be onto something. Could be bogus - I have not done a lot of research on this. I cannot find any specific numbers re fuel efficiency and hydrogen production rates etc ... Oh - and the conversion kit (when it becomes available) will cost about $10,000. Ugh. Grease be with you! Jurgen Susan Hogarth wrote: > As I said, I'd love to a see an > electric car marketed along with a solar carport. In fact, that would > be a cool market niche if plugin cars ever do become widely available. > "Take your car off-grid! Protect its finish form the sun while you > harvest the sun's energy for driving!" What fun the maketing for that > would be! :) > From Cheryl.Ganter at pgnmail.com Tue Jan 9 08:44:18 2007 From: Cheryl.Ganter at pgnmail.com (Ganter, Cheryl) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI Message-ID: <8F00D186F7D47B4BAB1E0C9C11D134BC8F7F07@NT000836.oak.zone1.progress-energy.com> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for older model VW's and newer ones? Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. The car had over 170K miles at that point. It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope the manufacturers are looking into this, because the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. Cheryl -----Original Message----- From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of Wayne Edmonds Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP fail (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few tanks. I had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and then it finally failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could not get it to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on TDICLUB.com, and the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com (http://www.dieselgeek.com/TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) , I was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little over an hour. Parts total: $6.16 I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly happened when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the forums on tdiclub.com to see more stories. -Wayne. -----Original Message----- From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of Rich Mason Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM To: BIG Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just experienced an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to ULSD fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be a problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss on the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will rebuild the pump for us. Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a larger sample comment. best, Rich Mason _______________________________________________ Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group _______________________________________________ Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From rickyb at rickyb.net Tue Jan 9 09:29:30 2007 From: rickyb at rickyb.net (rickyb at rickyb.net) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:29:30 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI Message-ID: <20070109142930.CEC704FFA0@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page http://www.tdiclub.com/(BTW an excellent resource of everything tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the time with pics. Hope this helps. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ganter, Cheryl" > To: BIG > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 > > > I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for older > model VW's and newer ones? > Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently > changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. > The car had over 170K miles at that point. > It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope the > manufacturers are looking into this, because > the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. > > Cheryl > > > -----Original Message----- > From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of > Wayne Edmonds > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM > To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > > > I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP > fail > (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few tanks. > I > had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and then it > finally > failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could not get > it > to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on TDICLUB.com, > and > the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com > (http://www.dieselgeek.com/TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) > , I > was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little over an > hour. Parts total: $6.16 > > I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD > have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly > happened > when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the forums > on > tdiclub.com to see more stories. > > -Wayne. > > -----Original Message----- > From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of > Rich > Mason > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM > To: BIG > Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > > > I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just experienced > an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In > perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common > failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to ULSD > fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 > from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became > available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or > bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to > start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be a > problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to > VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss on > the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will > rebuild the pump for us. > > Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a > larger sample comment. > > best, > Rich Mason > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > From richmason at mindspring.com Tue Jan 9 10:29:05 2007 From: richmason at mindspring.com (Rich Mason) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 18:29:05 +0300 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <20070109142930.CEC704FFA0@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20070109142930.CEC704FFA0@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <121EB3E2-0C82-481A-ACED-6A0D75D2FBA2@mindspring.com> It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best done preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn line for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local mechanic in Hillsborough for IP work if needed. Best, Rich On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page http://www.tdiclub.com/ > (BTW an excellent resource of everything tdi) the most resent > failures have been caused by someone running bio/dino mixed or just > bio and then going to low sulfur. The bio tends to swell the seals > in the ip itself and it actually not a bad thing. But the low > sulfur tends to dry out the seals and the leaking starts. > Replacing the seals dont seem to be too big of a job. They have a > lot of how tos in videos and if they dont have one someone will > give u a sure fire step by step of how to do whatever it is u want > to do. Most of the time with pics. Hope this helps. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >> To: BIG >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 >> >> >> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for older >> model VW's and newer ones? >> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently >> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. >> The car had over 170K miles at that point. >> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope the >> manufacturers are looking into this, because >> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. >> >> Cheryl >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of >> Wayne Edmonds >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM >> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> >> >> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP >> fail >> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few >> tanks. >> I >> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and then it >> finally >> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could >> not get >> it >> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on TDICLUB.com, >> and >> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com >> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ >> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) >> , I >> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little >> over an >> hour. Parts total: $6.16 >> >> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD >> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly >> happened >> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the >> forums >> on >> tdiclub.com to see more stories. >> >> -Wayne. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of >> Rich >> Mason >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM >> To: BIG >> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> >> >> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just experienced >> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In >> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common >> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to ULSD >> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 >> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became >> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or >> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to >> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be a >> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to >> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss on >> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will >> rebuild the pump for us. >> >> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a >> larger sample comment. >> >> best, >> Rich Mason >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From Cheryl.Ganter at pgnmail.com Tue Jan 9 10:37:27 2007 From: Cheryl.Ganter at pgnmail.com (Ganter, Cheryl) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI Message-ID: <8F00D186F7D47B4BAB1E0C9C11D134BC8F7F0E@NT000836.oak.zone1.progress-energy.com> Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the seal kit and have someone do it inexpensively. It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and replace the seals, and reinstall it and get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days to do mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and should not be done by just anyone. That has been my experience. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM To: rickyb at rickyb.net Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best done preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn line for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local mechanic in Hillsborough for IP work if needed. Best, Rich On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page http://www.tdiclub.com/ > (BTW an excellent resource of everything tdi) the most resent > failures have been caused by someone running bio/dino mixed or just > bio and then going to low sulfur. The bio tends to swell the seals > in the ip itself and it actually not a bad thing. But the low > sulfur tends to dry out the seals and the leaking starts. > Replacing the seals dont seem to be too big of a job. They have a > lot of how tos in videos and if they dont have one someone will > give u a sure fire step by step of how to do whatever it is u want > to do. Most of the time with pics. Hope this helps. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >> To: BIG >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 >> >> >> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for older >> model VW's and newer ones? >> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently >> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. >> The car had over 170K miles at that point. >> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope the >> manufacturers are looking into this, because >> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. >> >> Cheryl >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of >> Wayne Edmonds >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM >> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> >> >> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP >> fail >> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few >> tanks. >> I >> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and then it >> finally >> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could >> not get >> it >> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on TDICLUB.com, >> and >> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com >> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ >> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) >> , I >> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little >> over an >> hour. Parts total: $6.16 >> >> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD >> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly >> happened >> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the >> forums >> on >> tdiclub.com to see more stories. >> >> -Wayne. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of >> Rich >> Mason >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM >> To: BIG >> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> >> >> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just experienced >> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In >> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common >> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to ULSD >> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 >> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became >> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or >> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to >> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be a >> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to >> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss on >> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will >> rebuild the pump for us. >> >> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a >> larger sample comment. >> >> best, >> Rich Mason >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From hogarth at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 10:38:02 2007 From: hogarth at gmail.com (Susan Hogarth) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:38:02 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] homebrew hydrogen fuel?! In-Reply-To: <45A30845.1040004@yovo.info> References: <45A2AA5B.7030606@GSHudson.com> <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> <45A2CC85.1090709@gmail.com> <3889aa560701081509r2797f479j63c58a34ee191a5f@mail.gmail.com> <45A30845.1040004@yovo.info> Message-ID: <3889aa560701090738x391c7f6eh64725a1665b78522@mail.gmail.com> On 1/8/07, Jurgen Henn wrote: > Susan, et al, > the folks at United Nuclear have a working prototype of a system a bit > like what you're talking about, but it's even cooler because it's > centered on Hydrogen from solar or wind. They are developing kits to > convert gasoline engines to burn such renewable, "homebrew" hydrogen. > http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm > > IF this is for real, they might be onto something. Could be bogus - I > have not done a lot of research on this. I cannot find any specific > numbers re fuel efficiency and hydrogen production rates etc ... > > Oh - and the conversion kit (when it becomes available) will cost about > $10,000. Ugh. Thanks - this TOTALLY rocks! I -so- want that system for my Suzuki. I wonder if they'd take me on as a test/marketing case, and sell to me at a big discount? 10K sounds like a lot, but if they sell well, the price will come down, especially as competitors jump in. But I'm betting somewhere some stupid bureaucrat will try to smash it because of 'safety' issues. -- Susan Hogarth http://www.colliething.com From tbuckner at ibiblio.org Tue Jan 9 11:04:06 2007 From: tbuckner at ibiblio.org (tbuckner at ibiblio.org) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 11:04:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Omnivorous Engine In-Reply-To: <3889aa560701090738x391c7f6eh64725a1665b78522@mail.gmail.com> References: <45A2AA5B.7030606@GSHudson.com> <3889aa560701081315g3395037ds73d584b3aff623c0@mail.gmail.com> <45A2CC85.1090709@gmail.com> <3889aa560701081509r2797f479j63c58a34ee191a5f@mail.gmail.com> <45A30845.1040004@yovo.info> <3889aa560701090738x391c7f6eh64725a1665b78522@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <14225.152.2.60.242.1168358646.squirrel@secure.ibiblio.org> >From Spectrum (IEEE): Brazilian fuel control system lets cars run on gasoline,ethanol, and natural gas The hot asphalt of the test track stretches ahead. I stomp on the accelerator of the Fiat Siena and shift swiftly through the gears. The engine roars, the wind whooshes. A flock of quero-quero birds lazing nearby in the scorching Brazilian sun shriek in protest. You?d never know it by looking at this peppy white sedan?or even by driving it?but it is one special little vehicle. When it comes to fuel, it is the most flexible car on earth. The Siena carries both natural gas and a mixture of gasoline and ethanol. It will burn the natural gas?the cheapest car fuel in Brazil?while cruising, and it will switch on the fly to the liquid fuel mix whenever it needs more power, for example, when passing another car or going up a hill. And here?s the best part: you can put any mixture of gasoline and ethanol into its tank?from 100 percent gasoline and no ethanol to 100 percent ethanol and no gasoline. The engine automatically adjusts its ignition timing and the quantity of fuel injected into the cylinders on each cycle to get the most power out of whatever mixture you?ve got while keeping emissions under control. Finish article: http://spectrum.ieee.org/jan07/4834 From rickyb at rickyb.net Tue Jan 9 11:52:43 2007 From: rickyb at rickyb.net (rickyb at rickyb.net) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 11:52:43 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI Message-ID: <20070109165243.1EE3910A0EA@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> Didnt to make lite of the seals changeout just that I found that info. It is not a job just anyone would want to tackle but u can buy the seals and find someone(a real trusted mechanic)to change the seals. Like u said its not as expensive as a new ip. I was told long before the new low sulfur was being used that this was going to start to be a problem. The seals would dry and mechanics would replace the whole pump. and make money. lots of money. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ganter, Cheryl" > To: "Rich Mason" , rickyb at rickyb.net > Subject: RE: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 > > > Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the seal kit > and have someone do it inexpensively. > It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and replace the > seals, and reinstall it and > get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days to do > mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and > should not be done by just anyone. > That has been my experience. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM > To: rickyb at rickyb.net > Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > > > It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best done > preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed > to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt > unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The > dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn line > for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local mechanic in > Hillsborough for IP work if needed. > > Best, > Rich > > > On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > > > Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page > > http://www.tdiclub.com/ (BTW an excellent resource of everything > > tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone > > running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. > > The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it > > actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out > > the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem > > to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos > > and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step > > by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the > > time with pics. Hope this helps. > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" > >> To: BIG > >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > >> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 > >> > >> > >> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for older > >> model VW's and newer ones? > >> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently > >> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. > >> The car had over 170K miles at that point. > >> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope the > >> manufacturers are looking into this, because > >> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. > >> > >> Cheryl > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > >> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of > >> Wayne Edmonds > >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM > >> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' > >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > >> > >> > >> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP > >> fail > >> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few tanks. > >> I > >> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and then it > >> finally > >> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could not get > >> it > >> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on TDICLUB.com, > >> and > >> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com > >> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) > >> , I > >> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little over an > >> hour. Parts total: $6.16 > >> > >> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD > >> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly > >> happened > >> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the forums > >> on > >> tdiclub.com to see more stories. > >> > >> -Wayne. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > >> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of > >> Rich > >> Mason > >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM > >> To: BIG > >> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > >> > >> > >> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just experienced > >> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In > >> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common > >> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to ULSD > >> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 > >> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became > >> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or > >> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to > >> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be a > >> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to > >> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss on > >> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will > >> rebuild the pump for us. > >> > >> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a > >> larger sample comment. > >> > >> best, > >> Rich Mason > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > From patjamie23 at isp.com Tue Jan 9 19:06:31 2007 From: patjamie23 at isp.com (patjamie23 at isp.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:06:31 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <20070109165243.1EE3910A0EA@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20070109165243.1EE3910A0EA@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: What will keep it from happening again? On Jan 9, 2007, at 11:52 AM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > Didnt to make lite of the seals changeout just that I found that info. > It is not a job just anyone would want to tackle but u can buy the > seals and find someone(a real trusted mechanic)to change the seals. > Like u said its not as expensive as a new ip. I was told long before > the new low sulfur was being used that this was going to start to be a > problem. The seals would dry and mechanics would replace the whole > pump. and make money. lots of money. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >> To: "Rich Mason" , rickyb at rickyb.net >> Subject: RE: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 >> >> >> Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the seal >> kit >> and have someone do it inexpensively. >> It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and replace the >> seals, and reinstall it and >> get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days to do >> mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and >> should not be done by just anyone. >> That has been my experience. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM >> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> >> >> It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best done >> preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed >> to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt >> unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The >> dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn line >> for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local mechanic in >> Hillsborough for IP work if needed. >> >> Best, >> Rich >> >> >> On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >> >>> Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page >>> http://www.tdiclub.com/ (BTW an excellent resource of everything >>> tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone >>> running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. >>> The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it >>> actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out >>> the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem >>> to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos >>> and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step >>> by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the >>> time with pics. Hope this helps. >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>> To: BIG >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>> TDI >>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 >>>> >>>> >>>> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for older >>>> model VW's and newer ones? >>>> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently >>>> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. >>>> The car had over 170K miles at that point. >>>> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope the >>>> manufacturers are looking into this, because >>>> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. >>>> >>>> Cheryl >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of >>>> Wayne Edmonds >>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM >>>> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>> TDI >>>> >>>> >>>> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP >>>> fail >>>> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few >>>> tanks. >>>> I >>>> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and then it >>>> finally >>>> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could >>>> not get >>>> it >>>> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on >>>> TDICLUB.com, >>>> and >>>> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com >>>> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ >>>> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) >>>> , I >>>> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little >>>> over an >>>> hour. Parts total: $6.16 >>>> >>>> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD >>>> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly >>>> happened >>>> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the >>>> forums >>>> on >>>> tdiclub.com to see more stories. >>>> >>>> -Wayne. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of >>>> Rich >>>> Mason >>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM >>>> To: BIG >>>> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >>>> >>>> >>>> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just >>>> experienced >>>> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In >>>> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common >>>> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to >>>> ULSD >>>> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 >>>> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became >>>> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or >>>> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to >>>> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be >>>> a >>>> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to >>>> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss >>>> on >>>> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will >>>> rebuild the pump for us. >>>> >>>> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a >>>> larger sample comment. >>>> >>>> best, >>>> Rich Mason >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > From one at swimmindustries.com Tue Jan 9 19:50:53 2007 From: one at swimmindustries.com (Mike Swimm) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:50:53 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <7b8f03e00701091409u49790591h8a420d1dbf7fabae@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070109165243.1EE3910A0EA@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> <7b8f03e00701091409u49790591h8a420d1dbf7fabae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7b8f03e00701091650q4ad0f1d9nde39332a39e24769@mail.gmail.com> My 2003 Jetta is at the Durham VW dealer right now and they are telling me a need a new IP for about 1600. Rich - can you let me know who can replace the seals in Hillsborough? Thanks -Mike -- *Mike Swimm *http://swimmindustries.com From marc at theforestfoundation.org Wed Jan 10 08:43:27 2007 From: marc at theforestfoundation.org (Marc Dreyfors-President) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 08:43:27 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Schwarzenegger Orders Cuts in Emissions Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/10/us/10calif.html From marc at theforestfoundation.org Wed Jan 10 08:43:31 2007 From: marc at theforestfoundation.org (Marc Dreyfors-President) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 08:43:31 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] FW: BBC E-mail: EU plans 'industrial revolution' Message-ID: What's interesting is that not only are we seeing what will likely be the scenario for the US once we get off our rears, but the quote that "voluntary action on the part of the automakers" has had no results, and thus, mandatory regulations are being considered. Neo-liberal/libertarian model of lasseiz faire isn't working. The power of big corporations will likely thwart regulatory action as well unless "we the people" stand up. ** EU plans 'industrial revolution' ** The EU calls on member states to cut emissions of greenhouse gases by at least 20% by 2020, in a new strategy. < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/sci/tech/6247199.stm > ** BBC Daily E-mail ** Choose the news and sport headlines you want - when you want them, all in one daily e-mail < http://www.bbc.co.uk/email > ** Disclaimer ** The BBC is not responsible for the content of this e-mail, and anything written in this e-mail does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views or opinions. Please note that neither the e-mail address nor name of the sender have?been verified. If you do not wish to receive such e-mails in the future or want to know more about the BBC's Email a Friend service, please read our frequently asked questions. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/4162471.stm From marc at theforestfoundation.org Wed Jan 10 08:48:37 2007 From: marc at theforestfoundation.org (Marc Dreyfors-President) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 08:48:37 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I assume the seals are made of a polymer that won't dry out or expand? -----Original Message----- From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net]On Behalf Of patjamie23 at isp.com Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 7:07 PM To: rickyb at rickyb.net Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; Rich Mason; BIG Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI What will keep it from happening again? On Jan 9, 2007, at 11:52 AM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > Didnt to make lite of the seals changeout just that I found that info. > It is not a job just anyone would want to tackle but u can buy the > seals and find someone(a real trusted mechanic)to change the seals. > Like u said its not as expensive as a new ip. I was told long before > the new low sulfur was being used that this was going to start to be a > problem. The seals would dry and mechanics would replace the whole > pump. and make money. lots of money. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >> To: "Rich Mason" , rickyb at rickyb.net >> Subject: RE: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 >> >> >> Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the seal >> kit >> and have someone do it inexpensively. >> It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and replace the >> seals, and reinstall it and >> get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days to do >> mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and >> should not be done by just anyone. >> That has been my experience. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM >> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> >> >> It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best done >> preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed >> to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt >> unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The >> dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn line >> for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local mechanic in >> Hillsborough for IP work if needed. >> >> Best, >> Rich >> >> >> On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >> >>> Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page >>> http://www.tdiclub.com/ (BTW an excellent resource of everything >>> tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone >>> running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. >>> The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it >>> actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out >>> the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem >>> to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos >>> and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step >>> by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the >>> time with pics. Hope this helps. >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>> To: BIG >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>> TDI >>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 >>>> >>>> >>>> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for older >>>> model VW's and newer ones? >>>> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently >>>> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. >>>> The car had over 170K miles at that point. >>>> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope the >>>> manufacturers are looking into this, because >>>> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. >>>> >>>> Cheryl >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of >>>> Wayne Edmonds >>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM >>>> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>> TDI >>>> >>>> >>>> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP >>>> fail >>>> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few >>>> tanks. >>>> I >>>> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and then it >>>> finally >>>> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could >>>> not get >>>> it >>>> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on >>>> TDICLUB.com, >>>> and >>>> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com >>>> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ >>>> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) >>>> , I >>>> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little >>>> over an >>>> hour. Parts total: $6.16 >>>> >>>> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD >>>> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly >>>> happened >>>> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the >>>> forums >>>> on >>>> tdiclub.com to see more stories. >>>> >>>> -Wayne. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of >>>> Rich >>>> Mason >>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM >>>> To: BIG >>>> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >>>> >>>> >>>> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just >>>> experienced >>>> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In >>>> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common >>>> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to >>>> ULSD >>>> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 >>>> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became >>>> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or >>>> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to >>>> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be >>>> a >>>> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to >>>> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss >>>> on >>>> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will >>>> rebuild the pump for us. >>>> >>>> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a >>>> larger sample comment. >>>> >>>> best, >>>> Rich Mason >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > _______________________________________________ Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From marc at theforestfoundation.org Wed Jan 10 08:58:53 2007 From: marc at theforestfoundation.org (Marc Dreyfors-President) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 08:58:53 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Best and the worst of the oil companies Message-ID: http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/pickyourpoison/ From richmason at mindspring.com Wed Jan 10 10:26:35 2007 From: richmason at mindspring.com (Rich Mason) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:26:35 +0300 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As far as I know, the seals have not be reeingineered for ULSD, or for anything for that matter. On 10 Jan 2007, at 16:48, Marc Dreyfors-President wrote: > I assume the seals are made of a polymer that won't dry out or expand? > > -----Original Message----- > From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net]On Behalf Of > patjamie23 at isp.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 7:07 PM > To: rickyb at rickyb.net > Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; Rich Mason; BIG > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > > > What will keep it from happening again? > On Jan 9, 2007, at 11:52 AM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > >> Didnt to make lite of the seals changeout just that I found that >> info. >> It is not a job just anyone would want to tackle but u can buy the >> seals and find someone(a real trusted mechanic)to change the seals. >> Like u said its not as expensive as a new ip. I was told long before >> the new low sulfur was being used that this was going to start to >> be a >> problem. The seals would dry and mechanics would replace the whole >> pump. and make money. lots of money. >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>> To: "Rich Mason" , rickyb at rickyb.net >>> Subject: RE: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>> TDI >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 >>> >>> >>> Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the seal >>> kit >>> and have someone do it inexpensively. >>> It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and replace >>> the >>> seals, and reinstall it and >>> get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days to do >>> mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and >>> should not be done by just anyone. >>> That has been my experience. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM >>> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >>> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG >>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>> TDI >>> >>> >>> It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best >>> done >>> preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed >>> to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt >>> unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The >>> dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn >>> line >>> for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local >>> mechanic in >>> Hillsborough for IP work if needed. >>> >>> Best, >>> Rich >>> >>> >>> On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >>> >>>> Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page >>>> http://www.tdiclub.com/ (BTW an excellent resource of everything >>>> tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone >>>> running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. >>>> The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it >>>> actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out >>>> the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem >>>> to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos >>>> and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step >>>> by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the >>>> time with pics. Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>>> To: BIG >>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>>> TDI >>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for >>>>> older >>>>> model VW's and newer ones? >>>>> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently >>>>> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. >>>>> The car had over 170K miles at that point. >>>>> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope >>>>> the >>>>> manufacturers are looking into this, because >>>>> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. >>>>> >>>>> Cheryl >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>> Behalf Of >>>>> Wayne Edmonds >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM >>>>> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' >>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>>> TDI >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP >>>>> fail >>>>> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few >>>>> tanks. >>>>> I >>>>> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and >>>>> then it >>>>> finally >>>>> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could >>>>> not get >>>>> it >>>>> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on >>>>> TDICLUB.com, >>>>> and >>>>> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com >>>>> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ >>>>> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) >>>>> , I >>>>> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little >>>>> over an >>>>> hour. Parts total: $6.16 >>>>> >>>>> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD >>>>> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly >>>>> happened >>>>> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the >>>>> forums >>>>> on >>>>> tdiclub.com to see more stories. >>>>> >>>>> -Wayne. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>> Behalf Of >>>>> Rich >>>>> Mason >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM >>>>> To: BIG >>>>> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just >>>>> experienced >>>>> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In >>>>> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common >>>>> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to >>>>> ULSD >>>>> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using >>>>> B100 >>>>> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became >>>>> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was >>>>> cold or >>>>> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to >>>>> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely >>>>> to be >>>>> a >>>>> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a >>>>> tow to >>>>> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss >>>>> on >>>>> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will >>>>> rebuild the pump for us. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a >>>>> larger sample comment. >>>>> >>>>> best, >>>>> Rich Mason >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From rickyb at rickyb.net Wed Jan 10 10:44:06 2007 From: rickyb at rickyb.net (rickyb at rickyb.net) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:44:06 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI Message-ID: <20070110154406.E0D424FFB2@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> BTW the freds tdi site has trusted TDI mechanics listed from every state http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=130044 These are allover the forum and really hold each other accountable. They do seem to give excellent service and really know tdis forward and backwards. From that list here is one in the triangle Import Auto Werks - Chris Dale (eastern NC) (919) 871-5850 1823 E Millbrook Rd # 106 Raleigh, NC 27609 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich Mason" > To: marc at theforestfoundation.org > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:26:35 +0300 > > > As far as I know, the seals have not be reeingineered for ULSD, or > for anything for that matter. > > > On 10 Jan 2007, at 16:48, Marc Dreyfors-President wrote: > > > I assume the seals are made of a polymer that won't dry out or expand? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > > [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net]On Behalf Of > > patjamie23 at isp.com > > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 7:07 PM > > To: rickyb at rickyb.net > > Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; Rich Mason; BIG > > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > > > > > > What will keep it from happening again? > > On Jan 9, 2007, at 11:52 AM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > > > >> Didnt to make lite of the seals changeout just that I found that info. > >> It is not a job just anyone would want to tackle but u can buy the > >> seals and find someone(a real trusted mechanic)to change the seals. > >> Like u said its not as expensive as a new ip. I was told long before > >> the new low sulfur was being used that this was going to start to be a > >> problem. The seals would dry and mechanics would replace the whole > >> pump. and make money. lots of money. > >> > >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" > >>> To: "Rich Mason" , rickyb at rickyb.net > >>> Subject: RE: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 > >>> > >>> > >>> Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the seal > >>> kit > >>> and have someone do it inexpensively. > >>> It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and replace the > >>> seals, and reinstall it and > >>> get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days to do > >>> mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and > >>> should not be done by just anyone. > >>> That has been my experience. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM > >>> To: rickyb at rickyb.net > >>> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG > >>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > >>> > >>> > >>> It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best done > >>> preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed > >>> to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt > >>> unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The > >>> dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn line > >>> for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local mechanic in > >>> Hillsborough for IP work if needed. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Rich > >>> > >>> > >>> On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > >>> > >>>> Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page > >>>> http://www.tdiclub.com/ (BTW an excellent resource of everything > >>>> tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone > >>>> running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. > >>>> The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it > >>>> actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out > >>>> the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem > >>>> to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos > >>>> and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step > >>>> by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the > >>>> time with pics. Hope this helps. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" > >>>>> To: BIG > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 > >>>>> TDI > >>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for older > >>>>> model VW's and newer ones? > >>>>> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently > >>>>> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. > >>>>> The car had over 170K miles at that point. > >>>>> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope the > >>>>> manufacturers are looking into this, because > >>>>> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheryl > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > >>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of > >>>>> Wayne Edmonds > >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM > >>>>> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 > >>>>> TDI > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP > >>>>> fail > >>>>> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few > >>>>> tanks. > >>>>> I > >>>>> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and then it > >>>>> finally > >>>>> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could > >>>>> not get > >>>>> it > >>>>> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on > >>>>> TDICLUB.com, > >>>>> and > >>>>> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com > >>>>> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ > >>>>> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) > >>>>> , I > >>>>> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little > >>>>> over an > >>>>> hour. Parts total: $6.16 > >>>>> > >>>>> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD > >>>>> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly > >>>>> happened > >>>>> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the > >>>>> forums > >>>>> on > >>>>> tdiclub.com to see more stories. > >>>>> > >>>>> -Wayne. > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > >>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of > >>>>> Rich > >>>>> Mason > >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM > >>>>> To: BIG > >>>>> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just > >>>>> experienced > >>>>> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In > >>>>> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common > >>>>> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to > >>>>> ULSD > >>>>> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using B100 > >>>>> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became > >>>>> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was cold or > >>>>> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to > >>>>> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely to be > >>>>> a > >>>>> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a tow to > >>>>> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss > >>>>> on > >>>>> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will > >>>>> rebuild the pump for us. > >>>>> > >>>>> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a > >>>>> larger sample comment. > >>>>> > >>>>> best, > >>>>> Rich Mason > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > From richmason at mindspring.com Wed Jan 10 10:46:34 2007 From: richmason at mindspring.com (Rich Mason) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:46:34 +0300 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <20070110154406.E0D424FFB2@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20070110154406.E0D424FFB2@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <72114B86-8D17-4DC4-A2F3-7A36A3CB9629@mindspring.com> FYI there are multiple seals in this thing. Two of them are easily replaced and are most likely to leak. On my car, the shaft seal is also leaking and it must be repaired by Bosch because there seems to be no easy way to reliably relocate the shaft - read no keyway. On 10 Jan 2007, at 18:44, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > BTW the freds tdi site has trusted TDI mechanics listed from every > state > http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=130044 > These are allover the forum and really hold each other > accountable. They do seem to give excellent service and really > know tdis forward and backwards. From that list here is one in the > triangle > > Import Auto Werks - Chris Dale (eastern NC) (919) 871-5850 > 1823 E Millbrook Rd # 106 > Raleigh, NC 27609 > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Rich Mason" >> To: marc at theforestfoundation.org >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:26:35 +0300 >> >> >> As far as I know, the seals have not be reeingineered for ULSD, or >> for anything for that matter. >> >> >> On 10 Jan 2007, at 16:48, Marc Dreyfors-President wrote: >> >>> I assume the seals are made of a polymer that won't dry out or >>> expand? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net]On Behalf Of >>> patjamie23 at isp.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 7:07 PM >>> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >>> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; Rich Mason; BIG >>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>> TDI >>> >>> >>> What will keep it from happening again? >>> On Jan 9, 2007, at 11:52 AM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >>> >>>> Didnt to make lite of the seals changeout just that I found >>>> that info. >>>> It is not a job just anyone would want to tackle but u can buy the >>>> seals and find someone(a real trusted mechanic)to change the seals. >>>> Like u said its not as expensive as a new ip. I was told long >>>> before >>>> the new low sulfur was being used that this was going to start >>>> to be a >>>> problem. The seals would dry and mechanics would replace the whole >>>> pump. and make money. lots of money. >>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>>> To: "Rich Mason" , rickyb at rickyb.net >>>>> Subject: RE: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD >>>>> 2003 TDI >>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the >>>>> seal >>>>> kit >>>>> and have someone do it inexpensively. >>>>> It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and >>>>> replace the >>>>> seals, and reinstall it and >>>>> get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days >>>>> to do >>>>> mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and >>>>> should not be done by just anyone. >>>>> That has been my experience. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM >>>>> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >>>>> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG >>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD >>>>> 2003 TDI >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be >>>>> best done >>>>> preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car >>>>> towed >>>>> to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt >>>>> unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The >>>>> dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked >>>>> vacumn line >>>>> for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local >>>>> mechanic in >>>>> Hillsborough for IP work if needed. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Rich >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page >>>>>> http://www.tdiclub.com/ (BTW an excellent resource of everything >>>>>> tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone >>>>>> running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. >>>>>> The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it >>>>>> actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out >>>>>> the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem >>>>>> to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos >>>>>> and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step >>>>>> by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the >>>>>> time with pics. Hope this helps. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>>>>> To: BIG >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD >>>>>>> 2003 >>>>>>> TDI >>>>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's >>>>>>> for older >>>>>>> model VW's and newer ones? >>>>>>> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I >>>>>>> recently >>>>>>> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. >>>>>>> The car had over 170K miles at that point. >>>>>>> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I >>>>>>> hope the >>>>>>> manufacturers are looking into this, because >>>>>>> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheryl >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>>> Wayne Edmonds >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM >>>>>>> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD >>>>>>> 2003 >>>>>>> TDI >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP >>>>>>> fail >>>>>>> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few >>>>>>> tanks. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and >>>>>>> then it >>>>>>> finally >>>>>>> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could >>>>>>> not get >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on >>>>>>> TDICLUB.com, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com >>>>>>> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ >>>>>>> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) >>>>>>> , I >>>>>>> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little >>>>>>> over an >>>>>>> hour. Parts total: $6.16 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the >>>>>>> ULSD >>>>>>> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This >>>>>>> supposedly >>>>>>> happened >>>>>>> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> forums >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> tdiclub.com to see more stories. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Wayne. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>>> Rich >>>>>>> Mason >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM >>>>>>> To: BIG >>>>>>> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>>>>> TDI >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just >>>>>>> experienced >>>>>>> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 >>>>>>> Golf. In >>>>>>> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common >>>>>>> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to >>>>>>> ULSD >>>>>>> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been >>>>>>> using B100 >>>>>>> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became >>>>>>> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was >>>>>>> cold or >>>>>>> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was >>>>>>> hard to >>>>>>> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less >>>>>>> likely to be >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After >>>>>>> a tow to >>>>>>> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum >>>>>>> loss >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> rebuild the pump for us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a >>>>>>> larger sample comment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> best, >>>>>>> Rich Mason >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> > From wrenchwench at blast.com Wed Jan 10 10:58:29 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:58:29 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <867DD543-DA81-4B2C-8B01-21FA89585A7D@blast.com> What some of us learned this summer, Cheryl included here, is that leaky seals seems to happen more often on vehicles where the owner switches back & forth between diesel & biodiesel or svo on a regular basis. Apparently the diesel shrinks the seal and the bio swells them. Alternating fuels seems to cause some type of fatigue damage to the seals. Like Rickyb stated earlier. There is a more comprehensive write-up in the works. I replaced some of the seals on my 1989 Dodge injection pump this fall. It was mainly the front pump seal that was a natural rubber base that stood up to 4 years of B100, homebrew and commercial fuel. Rachel On Jan 10, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Rich Mason wrote: > As far as I know, the seals have not be reeingineered for ULSD, or > for anything for that matter. > > > On 10 Jan 2007, at 16:48, Marc Dreyfors-President wrote: > >> I assume the seals are made of a polymer that won't dry out or >> expand? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net]On Behalf Of >> patjamie23 at isp.com >> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 7:07 PM >> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; Rich Mason; BIG >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> >> >> What will keep it from happening again? >> On Jan 9, 2007, at 11:52 AM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >> >>> Didnt to make lite of the seals changeout just that I found that >>> info. >>> It is not a job just anyone would want to tackle but u can buy the >>> seals and find someone(a real trusted mechanic)to change the seals. >>> Like u said its not as expensive as a new ip. I was told long >>> before >>> the new low sulfur was being used that this was going to start to >>> be a >>> problem. The seals would dry and mechanics would replace the whole >>> pump. and make money. lots of money. >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>> To: "Rich Mason" , rickyb at rickyb.net >>>> Subject: RE: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>> TDI >>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 >>>> >>>> >>>> Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the seal >>>> kit >>>> and have someone do it inexpensively. >>>> It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and replace >>>> the >>>> seals, and reinstall it and >>>> get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days >>>> to do >>>> mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and >>>> should not be done by just anyone. >>>> That has been my experience. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM >>>> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >>>> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>> TDI >>>> >>>> >>>> It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best >>>> done >>>> preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed >>>> to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt >>>> unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The >>>> dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn >>>> line >>>> for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local >>>> mechanic in >>>> Hillsborough for IP work if needed. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Rich >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page >>>>> http://www.tdiclub.com/ (BTW an excellent resource of everything >>>>> tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone >>>>> running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. >>>>> The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it >>>>> actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out >>>>> the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem >>>>> to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos >>>>> and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step >>>>> by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the >>>>> time with pics. Hope this helps. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>>>> To: BIG >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>>>> TDI >>>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for >>>>>> older >>>>>> model VW's and newer ones? >>>>>> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently >>>>>> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. >>>>>> The car had over 170K miles at that point. >>>>>> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope >>>>>> the >>>>>> manufacturers are looking into this, because >>>>>> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheryl >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>> Wayne Edmonds >>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM >>>>>> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>>>> TDI >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP >>>>>> fail >>>>>> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few >>>>>> tanks. >>>>>> I >>>>>> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and >>>>>> then it >>>>>> finally >>>>>> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could >>>>>> not get >>>>>> it >>>>>> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on >>>>>> TDICLUB.com, >>>>>> and >>>>>> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com >>>>>> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ >>>>>> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) >>>>>> , I >>>>>> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little >>>>>> over an >>>>>> hour. Parts total: $6.16 >>>>>> >>>>>> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD >>>>>> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This >>>>>> supposedly >>>>>> happened >>>>>> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the >>>>>> forums >>>>>> on >>>>>> tdiclub.com to see more stories. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Wayne. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>> Rich >>>>>> Mason >>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM >>>>>> To: BIG >>>>>> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just >>>>>> experienced >>>>>> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In >>>>>> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common >>>>>> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to >>>>>> ULSD >>>>>> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using >>>>>> B100 >>>>>> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became >>>>>> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was >>>>>> cold or >>>>>> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was >>>>>> hard to >>>>>> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely >>>>>> to be >>>>>> a >>>>>> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a >>>>>> tow to >>>>>> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum >>>>>> loss >>>>>> on >>>>>> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who >>>>>> will >>>>>> rebuild the pump for us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a >>>>>> larger sample comment. >>>>>> >>>>>> best, >>>>>> Rich Mason >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From one at swimmindustries.com Wed Jan 10 11:20:51 2007 From: one at swimmindustries.com (Mike Swimm) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:20:51 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <867DD543-DA81-4B2C-8B01-21FA89585A7D@blast.com> References: <867DD543-DA81-4B2C-8B01-21FA89585A7D@blast.com> Message-ID: <7b8f03e00701100820w1d156a0mcbb48b39bfbcb271@mail.gmail.com> This seal information sure would have been good to know beforehand. I had never heard of these problmes being caused by switching back and forth. William and Rich - Thank you both for the information, I am going to call around and see what I can find. -MikeSwimm From markj.ambrose at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 11:51:05 2007 From: markj.ambrose at gmail.com (Mark J. Ambrose) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:51:05 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <7b8f03e00701100820w1d156a0mcbb48b39bfbcb271@mail.gmail.com> References: <867DD543-DA81-4B2C-8B01-21FA89585A7D@blast.com> <7b8f03e00701100820w1d156a0mcbb48b39bfbcb271@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A51979.7080809@gmail.com> So what is the best way to avoid this problem? Are we better off trying to run mostly on a ULSD/Bio blend in the B50 range and avoiding either B0 or B100? If we run mostly on biodiesel, should we take a 5-gallon jug of biodiesel with us if we go on a roadtrip to an area where biodiesel is hard to come by, so we can splash blend to about B20? -- Mark From Cheryl.Ganter at pgnmail.com Wed Jan 10 11:44:13 2007 From: Cheryl.Ganter at pgnmail.com (Ganter, Cheryl) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:44:13 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI Message-ID: <8F00D186F7D47B4BAB1E0C9C11D134BC8F7F1A@NT000836.oak.zone1.progress-energy.com> Those were my thoughts. If we cannot run B100 all of the time, a blend is probably better on the seals than running 100% diesel, and switching back and forth. -----Original Message----- From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of Mark J. Ambrose Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:51 AM To: BIG Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI So what is the best way to avoid this problem? Are we better off trying to run mostly on a ULSD/Bio blend in the B50 range and avoiding either B0 or B100? If we run mostly on biodiesel, should we take a 5-gallon jug of biodiesel with us if we go on a roadtrip to an area where biodiesel is hard to come by, so we can splash blend to about B20? -- Mark _______________________________________________ Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From wrenchwench at blast.com Wed Jan 10 11:44:39 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:44:39 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <45A51979.7080809@gmail.com> References: <867DD543-DA81-4B2C-8B01-21FA89585A7D@blast.com> <7b8f03e00701100820w1d156a0mcbb48b39bfbcb271@mail.gmail.com> <45A51979.7080809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <64B36238-933E-49D8-8EFE-15BE47689719@blast.com> The suggestion that was given to me from a diesel injection pump specialist in Oregon. Try to be as consistent as possible with your blend. I'm working on getting an update from these folks ( Diesel Injection Service in Oregon) right now. I will report back. On Jan 10, 2007, at 11:51 AM, Mark J. Ambrose wrote: > So what is the best way to avoid this problem? > > Are we better off trying to run mostly on a ULSD/Bio blend in the B50 > range and avoiding either B0 or B100? > > If we run mostly on biodiesel, should we take a 5-gallon jug of > biodiesel with us if we go on a roadtrip to an area where biodiesel is > hard to come by, so we can splash blend to about B20? > > -- Mark > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From rickyb at rickyb.net Wed Jan 10 13:07:30 2007 From: rickyb at rickyb.net (rickyb at rickyb.net) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:07:30 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI Message-ID: <20070110180730.46C674FF43@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> I hope you can post that here Rachel when you find out. I have been varying my blend wildly for about a year now but always a blend. I have anywhere from b80 to as little as b5 just depending on what we have made and available. We have taken a couple of trips and just use a tank of straight dino but not often. Anyway thanks and I hope u find something. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rachel Burton" > To: "Mark J.Ambrose" > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:44:39 -0500 > > > The suggestion that was given to me from a diesel injection pump > specialist in Oregon. > > Try to be as consistent as possible with your blend. > > I'm working on getting an update from these folks ( Diesel Injection > Service in Oregon) right now. > > I will report back. > > On Jan 10, 2007, at 11:51 AM, Mark J. Ambrose wrote: > > > So what is the best way to avoid this problem? > > > > Are we better off trying to run mostly on a ULSD/Bio blend in the B50 > > range and avoiding either B0 or B100? > > > > If we run mostly on biodiesel, should we take a 5-gallon jug of > > biodiesel with us if we go on a roadtrip to an area where biodiesel is > > hard to come by, so we can splash blend to about B20? > > > > -- Mark > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > From hogarth at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 15:02:50 2007 From: hogarth at gmail.com (Susan Hogarth) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:02:50 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] B20/E85 Station Message-ID: <3889aa560701101202q752039e1u234ecd5fd35442e0@mail.gmail.com> My apologies if this one has been mentioned; I just noticed the sign so it may be new. The Mobil at Sedwick and 55 (a few lights south of 55/54) in RTP now had B20 and E85. -- Susan Hogarth http://www.colliething.com From moldylocks at NC.RR.COM Wed Jan 10 20:28:48 2007 From: moldylocks at NC.RR.COM (Wayne Edmonds) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:28:48 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001e01c7351f$d887df70$a3de4147@wedmondshome> If you go to dieselgeek.com, they have seals made out of Viton - they won't swell or shrink. -----Original Message----- From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of Rich Mason Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:27 AM To: marc at theforestfoundation.org Cc: patjamie23 at isp.com; Ganter, Cheryl; BIG; rickyb at rickyb.net Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI As far as I know, the seals have not be reeingineered for ULSD, or for anything for that matter. On 10 Jan 2007, at 16:48, Marc Dreyfors-President wrote: > I assume the seals are made of a polymer that won't dry out or expand? > > -----Original Message----- > From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net]On Behalf Of > patjamie23 at isp.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 7:07 PM > To: rickyb at rickyb.net > Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; Rich Mason; BIG > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > > > What will keep it from happening again? > On Jan 9, 2007, at 11:52 AM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > >> Didnt to make lite of the seals changeout just that I found that >> info. >> It is not a job just anyone would want to tackle but u can buy the >> seals and find someone(a real trusted mechanic)to change the seals. >> Like u said its not as expensive as a new ip. I was told long before >> the new low sulfur was being used that this was going to start to >> be a >> problem. The seals would dry and mechanics would replace the whole >> pump. and make money. lots of money. >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>> To: "Rich Mason" , rickyb at rickyb.net >>> Subject: RE: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>> TDI >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 >>> >>> >>> Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the seal >>> kit >>> and have someone do it inexpensively. >>> It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and replace >>> the >>> seals, and reinstall it and >>> get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days to do >>> mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and >>> should not be done by just anyone. >>> That has been my experience. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM >>> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >>> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG >>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>> TDI >>> >>> >>> It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best >>> done >>> preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed >>> to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt >>> unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The >>> dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn >>> line >>> for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local >>> mechanic in >>> Hillsborough for IP work if needed. >>> >>> Best, >>> Rich >>> >>> >>> On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >>> >>>> Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page >>>> http://www.tdiclub.com/ (BTW an excellent resource of everything >>>> tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone >>>> running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. >>>> The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it >>>> actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out >>>> the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem >>>> to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos >>>> and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step >>>> by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the >>>> time with pics. Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>>> To: BIG >>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>>> TDI >>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for >>>>> older >>>>> model VW's and newer ones? >>>>> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently >>>>> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. >>>>> The car had over 170K miles at that point. >>>>> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope >>>>> the >>>>> manufacturers are looking into this, because >>>>> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. >>>>> >>>>> Cheryl >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>> Behalf Of >>>>> Wayne Edmonds >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM >>>>> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' >>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>>> TDI >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP >>>>> fail >>>>> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few >>>>> tanks. >>>>> I >>>>> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and >>>>> then it >>>>> finally >>>>> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could >>>>> not get >>>>> it >>>>> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on >>>>> TDICLUB.com, >>>>> and >>>>> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com >>>>> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ >>>>> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) >>>>> , I >>>>> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little >>>>> over an >>>>> hour. Parts total: $6.16 >>>>> >>>>> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD >>>>> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This supposedly >>>>> happened >>>>> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the >>>>> forums >>>>> on >>>>> tdiclub.com to see more stories. >>>>> >>>>> -Wayne. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>> Behalf Of >>>>> Rich >>>>> Mason >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM >>>>> To: BIG >>>>> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just >>>>> experienced >>>>> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In >>>>> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common >>>>> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to >>>>> ULSD >>>>> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using >>>>> B100 >>>>> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became >>>>> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was >>>>> cold or >>>>> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was hard to >>>>> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely >>>>> to be >>>>> a >>>>> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a >>>>> tow to >>>>> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum loss >>>>> on >>>>> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who will >>>>> rebuild the pump for us. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a >>>>> larger sample comment. >>>>> >>>>> best, >>>>> Rich Mason >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group _______________________________________________ Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From richmason at mindspring.com Thu Jan 11 02:21:42 2007 From: richmason at mindspring.com (Rich Mason) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:21:42 +0300 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI In-Reply-To: <001e01c7351f$d887df70$a3de4147@wedmondshome> References: <001e01c7351f$d887df70$a3de4147@wedmondshome> Message-ID: My impression was that, just like fuel lines, the IP seals were upgraded to Viton beginning in the late 90s. Is this not the case? On 11 Jan 2007, at 04:28, Wayne Edmonds wrote: > If you go to dieselgeek.com, they have seals made out of Viton - > they won't > swell or shrink. > > -----Original Message----- > From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net > [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf > Of Rich > Mason > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:27 AM > To: marc at theforestfoundation.org > Cc: patjamie23 at isp.com; Ganter, Cheryl; BIG; rickyb at rickyb.net > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI > > As far as I know, the seals have not be reeingineered for ULSD, or > for anything for that matter. > > > On 10 Jan 2007, at 16:48, Marc Dreyfors-President wrote: > >> I assume the seals are made of a polymer that won't dry out or >> expand? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net]On Behalf Of >> patjamie23 at isp.com >> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 7:07 PM >> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; Rich Mason; BIG >> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >> >> >> What will keep it from happening again? >> On Jan 9, 2007, at 11:52 AM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >> >>> Didnt to make lite of the seals changeout just that I found that >>> info. >>> It is not a job just anyone would want to tackle but u can buy the >>> seals and find someone(a real trusted mechanic)to change the seals. >>> Like u said its not as expensive as a new ip. I was told long >>> before >>> the new low sulfur was being used that this was going to start to >>> be a >>> problem. The seals would dry and mechanics would replace the whole >>> pump. and make money. lots of money. >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>> To: "Rich Mason" , rickyb at rickyb.net >>>> Subject: RE: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>> TDI >>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:37:27 -0500 >>>> >>>> >>>> Changing out seals on an IP is not costly, only if you buy the seal >>>> kit >>>> and have someone do it inexpensively. >>>> It is a major job to take an IP out and take it apart and replace >>>> the >>>> seals, and reinstall it and >>>> get the timing correct. It took a friend of mine 2 entire days >>>> to do >>>> mine. New IP's are VERY sensitive and >>>> should not be done by just anyone. >>>> That has been my experience. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rich Mason [mailto:richmason at mindspring.com] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:29 AM >>>> To: rickyb at rickyb.net >>>> Cc: Ganter, Cheryl; BIG >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>> TDI >>>> >>>> >>>> It does look to be a relatively inexpensive fix that may be best >>>> done >>>> preventatively. Where it hurts is when someone has their car towed >>>> to vw and they get the $1600 plus price tag for a factory rebuilt >>>> unit. Apparently they aren't interested in replacing seals. The >>>> dealer also said I needed a timing belt and had a cracked vacumn >>>> line >>>> for a total of $2300! I can refer people to a good local >>>> mechanic in >>>> Hillsborough for IP work if needed. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Rich >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9 Jan 2007, at 17:29, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just from what I have read on FREDS TDI page >>>>> http://www.tdiclub.com/ (BTW an excellent resource of everything >>>>> tdi) the most resent failures have been caused by someone >>>>> running bio/dino mixed or just bio and then going to low sulfur. >>>>> The bio tends to swell the seals in the ip itself and it >>>>> actually not a bad thing. But the low sulfur tends to dry out >>>>> the seals and the leaking starts. Replacing the seals dont seem >>>>> to be too big of a job. They have a lot of how tos in videos >>>>> and if they dont have one someone will give u a sure fire step >>>>> by step of how to do whatever it is u want to do. Most of the >>>>> time with pics. Hope this helps. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Ganter, Cheryl" >>>>>> To: BIG >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>>>> TDI >>>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:44:18 -0500 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder what the difference is between the seals in IP's for >>>>>> older >>>>>> model VW's and newer ones? >>>>>> Or is it the pumps themselves that are more sensitive? I recently >>>>>> changed out my IP after installing an Elsbett kit. >>>>>> The car had over 170K miles at that point. >>>>>> It seems unusual for an IP to fail after only 70K miles. I hope >>>>>> the >>>>>> manufacturers are looking into this, because >>>>>> the use of biofuels and ULSD will only increase going forward. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheryl >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>> Wayne Edmonds >>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:37 PM >>>>>> To: 'Rich Mason'; 'BIG' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 >>>>>> TDI >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I, too, have recently (last week) had the head seal on my IP >>>>>> fail >>>>>> (2000 Jetta). I had used petro-diesel and b20 for the last few >>>>>> tanks. >>>>>> I >>>>>> had been dealing with fuel leak that I couldn't locate, and >>>>>> then it >>>>>> finally >>>>>> failed completely... I had a fuel line full of air, and I could >>>>>> not get >>>>>> it >>>>>> to pump fuel out of the filter. Thanks to the forums on >>>>>> TDICLUB.com, >>>>>> and >>>>>> the excellent instructions on dieselgeek.com >>>>>> (http://www.dieselgeek.com/ >>>>>> TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm) >>>>>> , I >>>>>> was able to do the repair in the parking lot at work in a little >>>>>> over an >>>>>> hour. Parts total: $6.16 >>>>>> >>>>>> I have read quite a bit that the lower sulfur levels in the ULSD >>>>>> have been responsible for a lot of seals failing. This >>>>>> supposedly >>>>>> happened >>>>>> when they went from diesel to low sulfur diesel, also. Check the >>>>>> forums >>>>>> on >>>>>> tdiclub.com to see more stories. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Wayne. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net >>>>>> [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On >>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>> Rich >>>>>> Mason >>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:27 PM >>>>>> To: BIG >>>>>> Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] IP failure after ULSD 2003 TDI >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I assume this is appropriate for this list. We have just >>>>>> experienced >>>>>> an injection pump seal failure at 70k miles in our 2003 Golf. In >>>>>> perusing the TDI forums it looks like this is becoming a common >>>>>> failure in cars that go from high concentrations of biodiesel to >>>>>> ULSD >>>>>> fuel if they have a history of LSD before. We have been using >>>>>> B100 >>>>>> from our local coop for the past year or so. After ULSD became >>>>>> available and my wife began to use it in the car when it was >>>>>> cold or >>>>>> bio wasn't available, she began to notice that her car was >>>>>> hard to >>>>>> start. If she parked on a downhill slope, it was less likely >>>>>> to be >>>>>> a >>>>>> problem but after a month or two it finally gave up. After a >>>>>> tow to >>>>>> VW this week, they confirmed a leaky pump leading to a vacuum >>>>>> loss >>>>>> on >>>>>> the fuel line. I had it towed to a local mechanic/friend who >>>>>> will >>>>>> rebuild the pump for us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe all of the evidence is anecdotal but I would like to see a >>>>>> larger sample comment. >>>>>> >>>>>> best, >>>>>> Rich Mason >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>>>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>>>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >>> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >>> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From wrenchwench at blast.com Sat Jan 13 19:41:58 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 19:41:58 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] An Inconvenient Truth Message-ID: The public is invited to a showing of Al Gore's movie on global warming, "An Inconvenient Truth" on Tuesday, January 16 at 6:30 pm at the Chatham Council on Aging Senior Center, Highway 87, Pittsboro. Commentary and insight on global warming will be provided by Dr. Doug Crawford-Brown of UNC-Chapel Hill's Dept. of Environmental Sciences and Engineering. From CConnor at luckstone.com Sat Jan 13 20:32:52 2007 From: CConnor at luckstone.com (Chris . Connor) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 20:32:52 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Help!!! Message-ID: <251B95786C295C48BD9C2E0D678D84B508F849F1@5825-ml.luck.net> Kind BIG list folks, I need help finding VW Spec 505.01 oil for my 04 TDI. I am not willing to use oil that does not make VW's list. The only place I have found it is at Maxwell VW in Burlington, where I live. Pittsboro, Durham or Chapel Hill would be best for my travel area. Thanks in advance for the help. C2 From wrenchwench at blast.com Mon Jan 15 08:24:31 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:24:31 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fwd: diesel Jetta for sale References: <410-220071115123455171@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Please contact seller directly. > http://home.mindspring.com/~rhythmjunky/ > > From wrenchwench at blast.com Wed Jan 17 10:14:44 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:14:44 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Reminder - Sustainable Biodiesel Summit Feb 4th Message-ID: <84C4E596-1F05-413F-AAB0-C22F62111F87@blast.com> The Fourth Annual Sustainable Biodiesel Summit is only three weeks away, and the early bird registration deadline is January 22nd (this Monday). Register now before prices for the Summit and accommodations go up. An updated schedule is posted the conference homepage, www.sustainable- biodiesel.org. Register online now (http://sustainable-biodiesel.org/?page_id=8) and please spread the word to colleagues who are interested in sustainability in the biodiesel industry. Hope you can make it. Rachel From fduquettedavis at hotmail.com Tue Jan 9 19:03:43 2007 From: fduquettedavis at hotmail.com (Frances Davis) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:03:43 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] [pasturedpoultry] Walk Softly fundraiser Feb 3, 07 In-Reply-To: <8C901CC206BEFD2-163C-1BAF@webmail-db13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Anita, Why is Siler City trying to block their progress? I looked up Bray Park Sustainable Community on the Internet and it looks really great! What is the problem? Fran Davis Windmill Hill Farm Inman, SC >From: arolinga1 at aol.com >Reply-To: arolinga1 at aol.com, pasturedpoultry at lists.ncsu.edu >To: biofuels_interest_group at lists.emji.net, >cfsasouthcarolina-carolinafarmstewards.org at lists.carolinafarmstewards.org >CC: chatlist at bellsouth.net, debbie_roos at ncsu.edu, >durhamfoodcoopnewsletter at gmail.com, elizam at nimanranch.com, >ficklecreek at mebtel.net, growingsmallfarms at lists.ncsu.edu, >john.bonitz at gmail.com, >livestock-carolinafarmstewards.org at lists.carolinafarmstewards.org, >NCSecularNetwork at yahoogroups.com, oracle at theshadygrovefarm.com, >pasturedpoultry at lists.ncsu.edu, >piedmontsustainablefarmers-request at lists.ibiblio.org, >rkohanowich at cccc.edu, strawbale at listserv.repp.org, >trianglefamilies at yahoogroups.com, wisdomgourd at mac.com >Subject: [pasturedpoultry] Walk Softly fundraiser Feb 3, 07 >Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 01:11:25 -0500 > >Hi all ya'll! >Please forgive if this ends up in your mail box more than once. Harvey and >Nancy Harman have been incredible supporters of green housing and >sustainable farming, homeschooling as well as being huge instigators for >community building. Many, many of us have been the beneficiaries of their >hospitality and generosity over the years and now it is time to repay that >kindness with our support. We are organizing a fundraiser for legal fees >as they work to develop the Bray Park sustainable community currently being >blocked by the town of Siler City. >February 3rd, from 1pm until 10 pm, we're having a pig pickin' (pig >courtesy of Sofia's Farm) with trimmings, music, silent auction of donated >items and that evening - a community dance. This event will be in downtown >(such as it is) Bonlee, NC, near Siler City. Email me for directions. >We are also asking for donations of goods and services for the silent >auction. Think outside the box and be creative! A hand knit scarf, a >weekend at a bed and breakfast, a haircut, a hand thrown pot, a load of >mulch or compost, a share of a CSA for the season, a garden consultation >with an expert, a lesson or series of lessons for a musical instrument, >knitting/spinning/crocheting/weaving/pottery/dancing lessons, etc. The sky >is the limit! Please email me with your donation ideas ASAP >I (we) hope to see all ya'll on Feb 3 in this great opportunity to support >sustainable community in general and Harvey and Nancy in particular. > > >Anita Olinga > >________________________________________________________________________ >Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security >tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, >free AOL Mail and more. _________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song.? Get a customized station.? Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 From wrenchwench at blast.com Wed Jan 17 17:08:00 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:08:00 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fwd: Another Public B20 Location in NC References: <004701c73a7f$4e1512d0$0201a8c0@toshibauser> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > > Hi Everyone, > > > > This is to announce another public B20 location in NC is now open > as of > January 08, 2007 - this one the second in Caldwell County and the > first in > the area offering off-road B20: > > > > Cubbard Express #11 > > 1426 Beecher Anderson Road > > Lenoir, NC 28645 > > > > Phone: 828-754-9992 > > > > Products: B20 (on-road and off-road), Big Truck friendly > > > > This location is owned and operated by Bumgarner Oil - Foothills > Bio-Energies is manufacturing the biodiesel in Lenoir and providing to > Bumgarner through a distribution arrangement. This follows the > first public > B20 pump in Catawba County (Cubbard Express #5, 2nd Ave NE, > Hickory, NC). > More locations (5) in the Unifour area are planned and will be > announced in > the next 30-45 days. > > > > Please forward to interested parties and update your > lists. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Randy Dellinger > > Foothills Bio-Energies > > O: 828-759-7101 > > F: 828-754-0052 > > M: 214-704-2406 > > > www.foothillsbio-energies.com > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- From shipyardphil at yahoo.com Thu Jan 18 10:46:15 2007 From: shipyardphil at yahoo.com (Phil Carter) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:46:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] BioWillie on PBS Message-ID: <152950.20091.qm@web50804.mail.yahoo.com> Just in case anyone missed it, PBS had a show on Biodfuels and BioWIllie aired on Friday, January 12 on PBS viewed at http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/302/index.html interview with Willie Nelson http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/302/willie-nelson.html. -Phil _______________________________________________ Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From wrenchwench at blast.com Thu Jan 18 18:13:01 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:13:01 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fwd: Shadow Summit References: <000401c73b48$3e6d19d0$69c23c46@Geroge> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: "George" > Date: January 18, 2007 4:33:06 PM EST > To: "Rachel Burton" > Subject: Re: Shadow Summit > > Metrolina Biofuels in Charlotte looking to carpool to the Shadow > Summit in TX. Anyone interested please contact George @ 704.491.6278. From letterrrrip at hotmail.com Sat Jan 20 12:15:14 2007 From: letterrrrip at hotmail.com (Link Shumaker) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:15:14 +0000 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Feedstock comparisons In-Reply-To: <72114B86-8D17-4DC4-A2F3-7A36A3CB9629@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Group, Does anyone know of a quality article comparing biodiesel feedstocks? Specifically I am looking for an evaluation of several, if not many, different vegetable oils and their conversions for identical process conditions. Is there an estabilished correlation between degree of saturation and fatty acid chain length to conversion? Do most oils react similarly or do some sources of oils provide better transesterification properties than others? I can find comparisons of fats to oils, but no comparisons of differing oils. It seems that shorter chains of fatty acids would offer less steric resistance, but I haven't seen where that is scientifically established quantitatively. Any insight or references into this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Link Shumaker University of Kentucky _________________________________________________________________ Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into something more. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG From MarkJ.Ambrose at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 18:42:32 2007 From: MarkJ.Ambrose at gmail.com (Mark Ambrose) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 18:42:32 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Feedstock comparisons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45B2A8E8.2010301@gmail.com> Link -- From my limited understanding of the chemical processes involved in making biodiesel, I believe that the type of feedstock oil affects the properties of the end product but not how effective the conversion process is. The factors affecting the conversion process seem to have more to do with the quality of the oil, e.g. purity, amount of free fatty acids, rather than the type. -- Mark Link Shumaker wrote: >Group, > >Does anyone know of a quality article comparing biodiesel feedstocks? >Specifically I am looking for an evaluation of several, if not many, >different vegetable oils and their conversions for identical process >conditions. Is there an estabilished correlation between degree of >saturation and fatty acid chain length to conversion? Do most oils react >similarly or do some sources of oils provide better transesterification >properties than others? > >I can find comparisons of fats to oils, but no comparisons of differing >oils. It seems that shorter chains of fatty acids would offer less steric >resistance, but I haven't seen where that is scientifically established >quantitatively. > >Any insight or references into this matter would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks in advance, >Link Shumaker >University of Kentucky > >_________________________________________________________________ >Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into >something more. >http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > > From wrenchwench at blast.com Mon Jan 22 10:02:53 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:02:53 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Mark & Spence Implements $394 million Green Plan Involving Bio-diesel Message-ID: <98796EAC-A34B-4750-913A-16731B0B152A@blast.com> Marks & Spencer, the UK-based global retailer, has announced ?Plan A?? a business-wide $394 million ?eco-plan? that will have an impact on every part of their operations over the next five years. By 2012 Marks & Spencer will become carbon neutral; send no waste to landfill; extend sustainable sourcing; set new standards in ethical trading; and help customers and employees live a healthier lifestyle. One of the points of Plan A is a move to B50 bio-diesel. ?This is a deliberately ambitious and, in some areas, difficult plan,? said Stuart Rose, Marks & Spencer Chief Executive. ?We don?t have all the answers but we are determined to work with our suppliers, partners and government to make this happen.? Contact: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/ marks_spencer_l.html#more From steve at gogoetz.com Mon Jan 22 10:21:44 2007 From: steve at gogoetz.com (Stephen Goetz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:21:44 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Tesco, too In-Reply-To: <98796EAC-A34B-4750-913A-16731B0B152A@blast.com> Message-ID: <45B4D696.BF1DA.4725@pop.directnic.com> The BBC ran an article on the efforts of another UK chain, Tesco. An important key here is the use of information - namely letting the consumer know what the CO2 impact of their purchases is. The most powerful force - for good or evil - is the consumer. http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=5286&&edition=2&ttl=200 70122151748 -----Original Message----- From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of Rachel Burton Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:03 AM To: BIG Group Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Mark & Spence Implements $394 millionGreen Plan Involving Bio-diesel Marks & Spencer, the UK-based global retailer, has announced "Plan A"- a business-wide $394 million "eco-plan" that will have an impact on every part of their operations over the next five years. By 2012 Marks & Spencer will become carbon neutral; send no waste to landfill; extend sustainable sourcing; set new standards in ethical trading; and help customers and employees live a healthier lifestyle. One of the points of Plan A is a move to B50 bio-diesel. "This is a deliberately ambitious and, in some areas, difficult plan," said Stuart Rose, Marks & Spencer Chief Executive. "We don't have all the answers but we are determined to work with our suppliers, partners and government to make this happen." Contact: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/ marks_spencer_l.html#more _______________________________________________ Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From mattr at biofuels.coop Mon Jan 22 18:21:46 2007 From: mattr at biofuels.coop (Matthew Rudolf) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:21:46 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] FS: 1984 Mercedes Benz 300d turbo diesel sedan Message-ID: <49B7AE99-6A33-4E82-B24C-E93DF927A15F@biofuels.coop> Please contact seller directly for digital photos or for more information- 1984 Mercedes Benz 300d turbo diesel sedan. 150,050 miles Garage kept Excellent interior Excellent body 28mpg city; 35mpg highway. Contact me directly to see this auto. Peter, 919-960-5871 Peter at prkbikes.com MAKE OFFER!!! From biodiesel at yovo.info Mon Jan 22 22:58:52 2007 From: biodiesel at yovo.info (Jurgen Henn) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:58:52 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] MIT geothermal study Message-ID: <45B587FC.2030306@yovo.info> Slashdotters on this list may have seen this story - I think geothermal energy is very promising, but I did not think there was any way to get to the hot rocks on the East Coast. Apparently it IS feasible: ====+ http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/geothermal.html Although geothermal energy is produced commercially today and the United States is the world's biggest producer, existing U.S. plants have focused on the high-grade geothermal systems primarily located in isolated regions of the west. This new study takes a more ambitious look at this resource and evaluates its potential for much larger-scale deployment. "We've determined that heat mining can be economical in the short term, based on a global analysis of existing geothermal systems, an assessment of the total U.S. resource and continuing improvements in deep-drilling and reservoir stimulation technology," said panel head Jefferson W. Tester, the H. P. Meissner Professor of Chemical Engineering at MIT. ====== Alright, let's drill some holes!! Cheers, Jurgen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jurgen Henn 2002 Jetta TDI 40/50 MPG on biodiesel http://words.yovo.info/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From David.Little at nc.usda.gov Tue Jan 23 09:49:44 2007 From: David.Little at nc.usda.gov (Little, David - Wilson, NC) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:49:44 -0600 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Geothermal Message-ID: <1447032AC8D9F54AA935A2BEF04D86D9EA2FF5@MOSTLOUIS2S301.ageast.one.usda.gov> This is a quote from the MIT article in Jurgen Henn's email: "And unlike wind and solar systems, a geothermal plant works night and day, offering a non-interruptible source of electric power." Excess geothermal energy produced in off-peak hours could be used to produce hydrogen. It seems like this would be a greener power source than many of the other proposed power sources. Dave Little From jeffmoreadith at charter.net Wed Jan 24 04:13:38 2007 From: jeffmoreadith at charter.net (jeffmoreadith at charter.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 1:13:38 -0800 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fuel tank lining Message-ID: <1931191555.1169630018106.JavaMail.root@fepweb01> I have a 2001 Excursion (3 kids, many friends to carpool, can't afford the Sprinter yet) running well on highest blend available in Asheville (B50 to B100 depending on the season). A service manager with the local Ford dealer cautioned me on this fuel choice stating that the tanks have a liner which when exposed to the biofuel can flake off and cause problems. She described an experience with another local F250 owner that had this problem. I'm aware of the buildup on tank walls from petrol diesel and recs to start with B20 and gradually increase dilution when starting to use biofuel in vehicles, but I was not aware tanks might be made with a lining that can then be a source of "flaking" when exposed to biofuel. Any experience/comment on this would be appreciated. Jeff Moreadith From shiftlink at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 09:33:38 2007 From: shiftlink at gmail.com (Cameron Conover) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:33:38 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fuel tank lining In-Reply-To: <1931191555.1169630018106.JavaMail.root@fepweb01> References: <1931191555.1169630018106.JavaMail.root@fepweb01> Message-ID: <4c758e6d0701240633k283e3c23ua02c51c1e322e24b@mail.gmail.com> I don't have any direct experience with the lining, but based on the basic chemistry involved I'd be suspect of that. Petro Diesel is a strong solvent, Bio-Diesel isn't. The things that causes Biodiesel to clog fuel filters is that it kills the microbes that digest the petro diesel, they die and end up in the fuel tank looking like fine rust particles. Cameron On 1/24/07, jeffmoreadith at charter.net wrote: > I have a 2001 Excursion (3 kids, many friends to carpool, can't afford the Sprinter yet) running well on highest blend available in Asheville (B50 to B100 depending on the season). > A service manager with the local Ford dealer cautioned me on this fuel choice stating that the tanks have a liner which when exposed to the biofuel can flake off and cause problems. She described an experience with another local F250 owner that had this problem. > I'm aware of the buildup on tank walls from petrol diesel and recs to start with B20 and gradually increase dilution when starting to use biofuel in vehicles, but I was not aware tanks might be made with a lining that can then be a source of "flaking" when exposed to biofuel. > > Any experience/comment on this would be appreciated. > > Jeff Moreadith > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > From evan at biofuels.coop Wed Jan 24 10:24:35 2007 From: evan at biofuels.coop (Evan Ashworth) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:24:35 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fuel tank lining In-Reply-To: <4c758e6d0701240633k283e3c23ua02c51c1e322e24b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1931191555.1169630018106.JavaMail.root@fepweb01> <4c758e6d0701240633k283e3c23ua02c51c1e322e24b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Biodiesel is actually a very strong solvent. . .it dissolves paint, for example, much faster than diesel fuel. It also works particularly well to degrade natural rubber components, so if there is a tank lining made of a similar material, that's a possibility. I've never heard of that problem, and it's possible that the service manager was confusing the "tank lining" with petroleum build-up. The reason biodiesel causes filter clogs is that it dissolves the petroleum residues that build up in the tank and fuel lines. This is flushed out and ends up trapped in the fuel filter. Microbial problems are a separate issue--and microbes can survive in either diesel fuel or biodiesel. They require a small amount of water to live, and accumulate in the water/fuel line inside the tank. This can cause filter clogs too, regardless of which fuel is in the tank. -Evan Piedmont Biofuels On Jan 24, 2007, at 9:33 AM, Cameron Conover wrote: > I don't have any direct experience with the lining, but based on the > basic chemistry involved I'd be suspect of that. Petro Diesel is a > strong solvent, Bio-Diesel isn't. The things that causes Biodiesel to > clog fuel filters is that it kills the microbes that digest the petro > diesel, they die and end up in the fuel tank looking like fine rust > particles. > Cameron > > On 1/24/07, jeffmoreadith at charter.net > wrote: >> I have a 2001 Excursion (3 kids, many friends to carpool, can't >> afford the Sprinter yet) running well on highest blend available >> in Asheville (B50 to B100 depending on the season). >> A service manager with the local Ford dealer cautioned me on this >> fuel choice stating that the tanks have a liner which when exposed >> to the biofuel can flake off and cause problems. She described an >> experience with another local F250 owner that had this problem. >> I'm aware of the buildup on tank walls from petrol diesel and recs >> to start with B20 and gradually increase dilution when starting to >> use biofuel in vehicles, but I was not aware tanks might be made >> with a lining that can then be a source of "flaking" when exposed >> to biofuel. >> >> Any experience/comment on this would be appreciated. >> >> Jeff Moreadith >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group >> > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From shiftlink at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 11:13:02 2007 From: shiftlink at gmail.com (Cameron Conover) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:13:02 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fuel tank lining In-Reply-To: References: <1931191555.1169630018106.JavaMail.root@fepweb01> <4c758e6d0701240633k283e3c23ua02c51c1e322e24b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c758e6d0701240813r28dc1b82h89dd0e29d08a5f2b@mail.gmail.com> I don't remember why I thought that, maybe I was thinking of SVO? On 1/24/07, Evan Ashworth wrote: > Biodiesel is actually a very strong solvent. . .it dissolves paint, > for example, much faster than diesel fuel. It also works > particularly well to degrade natural rubber components, so if there > is a tank lining made of a similar material, that's a possibility. > I've never heard of that problem, and it's possible that the service > manager was confusing the "tank lining" with petroleum build-up. > > The reason biodiesel causes filter clogs is that it dissolves the > petroleum residues that build up in the tank and fuel lines. This is > flushed out and ends up trapped in the fuel filter. > > Microbial problems are a separate issue--and microbes can survive in > either diesel fuel or biodiesel. They require a small amount of > water to live, and accumulate in the water/fuel line inside the > tank. This can cause filter clogs too, regardless of which fuel is > in the tank. > > -Evan > Piedmont Biofuels > > > On Jan 24, 2007, at 9:33 AM, Cameron Conover wrote: > > > I don't have any direct experience with the lining, but based on the > > basic chemistry involved I'd be suspect of that. Petro Diesel is a > > strong solvent, Bio-Diesel isn't. The things that causes Biodiesel to > > clog fuel filters is that it kills the microbes that digest the petro > > diesel, they die and end up in the fuel tank looking like fine rust > > particles. > > Cameron > > > > On 1/24/07, jeffmoreadith at charter.net > > wrote: > >> I have a 2001 Excursion (3 kids, many friends to carpool, can't > >> afford the Sprinter yet) running well on highest blend available > >> in Asheville (B50 to B100 depending on the season). > >> A service manager with the local Ford dealer cautioned me on this > >> fuel choice stating that the tanks have a liner which when exposed > >> to the biofuel can flake off and cause problems. She described an > >> experience with another local F250 owner that had this problem. > >> I'm aware of the buildup on tank walls from petrol diesel and recs > >> to start with B20 and gradually increase dilution when starting to > >> use biofuel in vehicles, but I was not aware tanks might be made > >> with a lining that can then be a source of "flaking" when exposed > >> to biofuel. > >> > >> Any experience/comment on this would be appreciated. > >> > >> Jeff Moreadith > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > >> Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > >> http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > From rickyb at rickyb.net Wed Jan 24 12:05:53 2007 From: rickyb at rickyb.net (rickyb at rickyb.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:05:53 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes Message-ID: <20070124170553.99F2B9EEB2@ws6-2.us4.outblaze.com> I have a quick question about the taxes for the coop. When members make bio at the coop does the coop have them sign a disclaimer and leave it up them to pay the tax on the made fuel. The reason I ask is because we are at that point here in Winston and cant decide which way to go with it. thanks From mattr at biofuels.coop Wed Jan 24 14:14:18 2007 From: mattr at biofuels.coop (Matthew Rudolf) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:14:18 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes In-Reply-To: <20070124170553.99F2B9EEB2@ws6-2.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20070124170553.99F2B9EEB2@ws6-2.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Rick, At the coop we log every gallon of fuel made and remit the road taxes ourselves. We remit NC state road taxes monthly and federal road taxes on a quarterly basis. Let me know if you have any other questions. Matt On Jan 24, 2007, at 12:05 PM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > I have a quick question about the taxes for the coop. When > members make bio at the coop does the coop have them sign a > disclaimer and leave it up them to pay the tax on the made fuel. > The reason I ask is because we are at that point here in Winston > and cant decide which way to go with it. thanks > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group Matthew Rudolf Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop From rickyb at rickyb.net Wed Jan 24 16:08:23 2007 From: rickyb at rickyb.net (rickyb at rickyb.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:08:23 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes Message-ID: <20070124210823.4FCE82F940@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Thanks Tom, But we dont really intend to pass along fuel to the members. The members pay a membership to join and then use the coop to make their own fuel. We will be selling the feedstock methanol etc to users along with over head charges for the coop. This way the members themselves will be making and using the bio and the coop will not be selling it to them. I am not sure this would constitute a terminal event in that sense but I really dont know. Its all so vague and hazy sometimes until the tax man cometh. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TILAPIA at aol.com > To: rickyb at rickyb.net, biofuels_interest_group at lists.emji.net > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:06:11 EST > > > > There is no exemption for a coop to pass along any quantity of fuel to its > members without a very significant paperwork burden. Each time biodiesel is > dispensed, it would be a "terminal event" in the eyes of the IRS. > Each such event > would have to be recorded as to name, address and SSN of the user. This > information is required to be forwarded periodically to the IRS. > This would also > nullify any federal incentive payments to the users, vendor or whoever. This > alone is worth 50? to $1 per gallon. > > Its also may trigger state revenuers to get deeply involved. > > I recommend the coop sign up on IRS form 637 and become legitimate. Then you > file quarterly form 720, which qualifies you for cash subsidies on a quarterly > basis. Most likely you can actually get money back over and above all tax > obligations. This will keep everyone out of trouble. > > Tom Leue > > > > In a message dated 1/24/07 12:06:56 PM, rickyb at rickyb.net writes: > > > > I have a quick question about the taxes for the coop. When > > members make bio at the coop does the coop have them sign a > > disclaimer and leave it up them to pay the tax on the made fuel. > > The reason I ask is because we are at that point here in Winston > > and cant decide which way to go with it. thanks > > > > > > > > > www.YellowBiodiesel.com > From john.bonitz at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 00:51:51 2007 From: john.bonitz at gmail.com (John Bonitz) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:51:51 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes Message-ID: <84a57a420701242151q7b6e0f76rd2ad24f4fd0c9582@mail.gmail.com> Ricky, Matt gave a good answer. I wanted to share the following link to our website: http://www.biofuels.coop/taxes.shtml Check it out. cheers, -- John Bonitz Silk Hope, NC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From john.bonitz at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 12:10:33 2007 From: john.bonitz at gmail.com (John Bonitz) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:10:33 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes In-Reply-To: <20070125130950.9FB982F95A@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20070125130950.9FB982F95A@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <84a57a420701250910i6730c234mb30e699b9af77106@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ricky, Piedmont Biofuels Coop submits all taxes on all fuel made cooperatively at the Moncure refinery. To use the facility, you must be a coop member. However, we are NOT currently submitting taxes for coop members who make their fuel at home (or at locations other than the coop refinery in Moncure). We've talked about it, but I do not believe we have surmounted the logistical, recordkeeping, and paperwork details. It would make sense, though, as an extra service to our coop members who are homebrewers. Something to think about as you develop y'alls coop. cheers! -- John Bonitz Silk Hope, NC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On 1/25/07, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > Thanks John, > > So in answer to my question then, the Piedmont coop does not take care of the taxes at all for it members? The entire process is left to them? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Bonitz" > To: rickyb at rickyb.net, BIG > Subject: taxes > Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:51:51 -0500 > > > Ricky, > > Matt gave a good answer. I wanted to share the following link to our website: > > http://www.biofuels.coop/taxes.shtml > > Check it out. > > cheers, > > -- John Bonitz > Silk Hope, NC > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From rickyb at rickyb.net Thu Jan 25 13:12:17 2007 From: rickyb at rickyb.net (rickyb at rickyb.net) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:12:17 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes Message-ID: <20070125181217.2F8534FFA3@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> John and everyone, Here is the email I sent out to our potential members for tonights meeting. It outlines most of what are looking to incorporate for our business coop model. It is not perfect but I believe it is workable. As always it will need some modification along the way. Homebrewers may in the future be included in the tax umbrella of the coop but it will take more money to fund and pay for that one. Still it is within the realm of "can be done". Hi everyone, > > Just a quick few notes for tonights meeting. We have discussed a > model for the coop at length and here is what we think is a very > good start. All this is of course is prefaced on finding a > suitable place and the membership's agreement. The coop's first > main purpose will be to supply resources for its members to make > biodiesel. Members will be able to purchase any raw resources from > the coop at a price set by the board which will allow the coop to > make a marginal profit to offset overhead and finance future > growth. The members can use the coops facilities to make bio for > personal use. This can be done as single individuals or in groups > in order to optomize the use of the facilities and the batch(es) > then can be split among those people in that group. Included in > the cost will taxes due. Each person or group making a batch(es) > of bio will and must be accompanied by someone that has been > designated by the board as certified to make bio and use the > facilities. Certifications will be ongoing for the general > membership. Meticulous records must be keep on all fuel made and > its distribution. The coop will then be responsible for filling > out the correct forms and filing the paper work for the individual > with the government agencies. This will insure that both the coop > and the individual will be in compliance with the law and the coop > will have all records needed to insure its lawfull compliance. > Hopefully the future will present more than just bio for its > membership. The keys to success will be participation by all and a > large membership. Both will allow for maximum discount for all its > members in all the coops offerings. Come with all your ideas > tonight or send them along via email. Hope to see u there! From mattr at biofuels.coop Thu Jan 25 15:43:53 2007 From: mattr at biofuels.coop (Matthew Rudolf) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:43:53 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes In-Reply-To: <20070125181217.2F8534FFA3@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20070125181217.2F8534FFA3@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <6713F406-D403-4CFF-8757-F4F3EC9B7E30@biofuels.coop> This is a great and pertinent discussion that we have been working on for quite a while now. As John mentioned, we pay both federal and state motor fuels tax on all fuel produced at Piedmont Biofuels Cooperative, separate from fuel made at Industrial. We have posted a $2000 bond with the Motor Fuels Division of the Department of Revenue, and submit monthly based on total on-road fuel that our worker-members produce during community fuel making. In regards to specifically NC road tax, we have discussed at length helping guide our members through the motor fuels tax hurdles (which is why we put up the page John referenced), and possibly letting them file under our bond, which we recognize as being an onerous burden for someone on a budget. The best possible scenario would be getting small-scale producers exempted from the $2000 bond requirement, so that they can remit directly, however, we still have not reached resolution with the DOR on this item. Ricky, we are in the heat of these negotiations with the DOR right now, so you might want to just sit tight and see how things play out before you guys make any phone calls. Right now we are trying to stay on their good side, as we try to get a ruling in our favor. Matt On Jan 25, 2007, at 1:12 PM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > John and everyone, > > Here is the email I sent out to our potential members for tonights > meeting. It outlines most of what are looking to incorporate for > our business coop model. It is not perfect but I believe it is > workable. As always it will need some modification along the way. > Homebrewers may in the future be included in the tax umbrella of > the coop but it will take more money to fund and pay for that one. > Still it is within the realm of "can be done". > > Hi everyone, >> >> Just a quick few notes for tonights meeting. We have discussed a >> model for the coop at length and here is what we think is a very >> good start. All this is of course is prefaced on finding a >> suitable place and the membership's agreement. The coop's first >> main purpose will be to supply resources for its members to make >> biodiesel. Members will be able to purchase any raw resources from >> the coop at a price set by the board which will allow the coop to >> make a marginal profit to offset overhead and finance future >> growth. The members can use the coops facilities to make bio for >> personal use. This can be done as single individuals or in groups >> in order to optomize the use of the facilities and the batch(es) >> then can be split among those people in that group. Included in >> the cost will taxes due. Each person or group making a batch(es) >> of bio will and must be accompanied by someone that has been >> designated by the board as certified to make bio and use the >> facilities. Certifications will be ongoing for the general >> membership. Meticulous records must be keep on all fuel made and >> its distribution. The coop will then be responsible for filling >> out the correct forms and filing the paper work for the individual >> with the government agencies. This will insure that both the coop >> and the individual will be in compliance with the law and the coop >> will have all records needed to insure its lawfull compliance. >> Hopefully the future will present more than just bio for its >> membership. The keys to success will be participation by all and a >> large membership. Both will allow for maximum discount for all its >> members in all the coops offerings. Come with all your ideas >> tonight or send them along via email. Hope to see u there! > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group Matthew Rudolf Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop From rickyb at rickyb.net Thu Jan 25 15:52:41 2007 From: rickyb at rickyb.net (rickyb at rickyb.net) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:52:41 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes Message-ID: <20070125205242.06B4610A151@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> Thanks Matthew. We will be looking forward to hearing the outcome. Anything we can do to help let us know. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matthew Rudolf" > To: "BIG List" > Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes > Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:43:53 -0500 > > > This is a great and pertinent discussion that we have been working on > for quite a while now. As John mentioned, we pay both federal and > state motor fuels tax on all fuel produced at Piedmont Biofuels > Cooperative, separate from fuel made at Industrial. We have posted a > $2000 bond with the Motor Fuels Division of the Department of > Revenue, and submit monthly based on total on-road fuel that our > worker-members produce during community fuel making. > > In regards to specifically NC road tax, we have discussed at length > helping guide our members through the motor fuels tax hurdles (which > is why we put up the page John referenced), and possibly letting them > file under our bond, which we recognize as being an onerous burden > for someone on a budget. The best possible scenario would be getting > small-scale producers exempted from the $2000 bond requirement, so > that they can remit directly, however, we still have not reached > resolution with the DOR on this item. Ricky, we are in the heat of > these negotiations with the DOR right now, so you might want to just > sit tight and see how things play out before you guys make any phone > calls. Right now we are trying to stay on their good side, as we > try to get a ruling in our favor. > > Matt > > On Jan 25, 2007, at 1:12 PM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > > > John and everyone, > > > > Here is the email I sent out to our potential members for > > tonights meeting. It outlines most of what are looking to > > incorporate for our business coop model. It is not perfect but > > I believe it is workable. As always it will need some > > modification along the way. Homebrewers may in the future be > > included in the tax umbrella of the coop but it will take more > > money to fund and pay for that one. Still it is within the realm > > of "can be done". > > > > Hi everyone, > >> > >> Just a quick few notes for tonights meeting. We have discussed a > >> model for the coop at length and here is what we think is a very > >> good start. All this is of course is prefaced on finding a > >> suitable place and the membership's agreement. The coop's first > >> main purpose will be to supply resources for its members to make > >> biodiesel. Members will be able to purchase any raw resources from > >> the coop at a price set by the board which will allow the coop to > >> make a marginal profit to offset overhead and finance future > >> growth. The members can use the coops facilities to make bio for > >> personal use. This can be done as single individuals or in groups > >> in order to optomize the use of the facilities and the batch(es) > >> then can be split among those people in that group. Included in > >> the cost will taxes due. Each person or group making a batch(es) > >> of bio will and must be accompanied by someone that has been > >> designated by the board as certified to make bio and use the > >> facilities. Certifications will be ongoing for the general > >> membership. Meticulous records must be keep on all fuel made and > >> its distribution. The coop will then be responsible for filling > >> out the correct forms and filing the paper work for the individual > >> with the government agencies. This will insure that both the coop > >> and the individual will be in compliance with the law and the coop > >> will have all records needed to insure its lawfull compliance. > >> Hopefully the future will present more than just bio for its > >> membership. The keys to success will be participation by all and a > >> large membership. Both will allow for maximum discount for all its > >> members in all the coops offerings. Come with all your ideas > >> tonight or send them along via email. Hope to see u there! > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > > Matthew Rudolf > Piedmont Biofuels > www.biofuels.coop > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group > From GARNERJ at ecu.edu Thu Jan 25 16:00:04 2007 From: GARNERJ at ecu.edu (Garner, John) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:00:04 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes References: <20070125181217.2F8534FFA3@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> <6713F406-D403-4CFF-8757-F4F3EC9B7E30@biofuels.coop> Message-ID: You mention the $2000 bond "as being an onerous burden for someone on a budget." I was able to pay a yearly fee of $100 for a $2500 bond through a bonding company and NCDOR gladly accepted this bond without hesitation. This small fee should not be too burdensome for someone on a budget. Anyone that would like the name and contact for this company may call me at the number listed below. John Garner 252-737-1033 -----Original Message----- From: biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net [mailto:biofuels_interest_group-bounces at lists.emji.net] On Behalf Of Matthew Rudolf Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:44 PM To: BIG List Subject: Re: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] taxes This is a great and pertinent discussion that we have been working on for quite a while now. As John mentioned, we pay both federal and state motor fuels tax on all fuel produced at Piedmont Biofuels Cooperative, separate from fuel made at Industrial. We have posted a $2000 bond with the Motor Fuels Division of the Department of Revenue, and submit monthly based on total on-road fuel that our worker-members produce during community fuel making. In regards to specifically NC road tax, we have discussed at length helping guide our members through the motor fuels tax hurdles (which is why we put up the page John referenced), and possibly letting them file under our bond, which we recognize as being an onerous burden for someone on a budget. The best possible scenario would be getting small-scale producers exempted from the $2000 bond requirement, so that they can remit directly, however, we still have not reached resolution with the DOR on this item. Ricky, we are in the heat of these negotiations with the DOR right now, so you might want to just sit tight and see how things play out before you guys make any phone calls. Right now we are trying to stay on their good side, as we try to get a ruling in our favor. Matt On Jan 25, 2007, at 1:12 PM, rickyb at rickyb.net wrote: > John and everyone, > > Here is the email I sent out to our potential members for tonights > meeting. It outlines most of what are looking to incorporate for > our business coop model. It is not perfect but I believe it is > workable. As always it will need some modification along the way. > Homebrewers may in the future be included in the tax umbrella of > the coop but it will take more money to fund and pay for that one. > Still it is within the realm of "can be done". > > Hi everyone, >> >> Just a quick few notes for tonights meeting. We have discussed a >> model for the coop at length and here is what we think is a very >> good start. All this is of course is prefaced on finding a >> suitable place and the membership's agreement. The coop's first >> main purpose will be to supply resources for its members to make >> biodiesel. Members will be able to purchase any raw resources from >> the coop at a price set by the board which will allow the coop to >> make a marginal profit to offset overhead and finance future >> growth. The members can use the coops facilities to make bio for >> personal use. This can be done as single individuals or in groups >> in order to optomize the use of the facilities and the batch(es) >> then can be split among those people in that group. Included in >> the cost will taxes due. Each person or group making a batch(es) >> of bio will and must be accompanied by someone that has been >> designated by the board as certified to make bio and use the >> facilities. Certifications will be ongoing for the general >> membership. Meticulous records must be keep on all fuel made and >> its distribution. The coop will then be responsible for filling >> out the correct forms and filing the paper work for the individual >> with the government agencies. This will insure that both the coop >> and the individual will be in compliance with the law and the coop >> will have all records needed to insure its lawfull compliance. >> Hopefully the future will present more than just bio for its >> membership. The keys to success will be participation by all and a >> large membership. Both will allow for maximum discount for all its >> members in all the coops offerings. Come with all your ideas >> tonight or send them along via email. Hope to see u there! > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list > Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net > http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group Matthew Rudolf Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop _______________________________________________ Biofuels_Interest_Group mailing list Biofuels_Interest_Group at lists.emji.net http://lists.emji.net/mailman/listinfo/biofuels_interest_group From mattr at biofuels.coop Sat Jan 27 00:15:56 2007 From: mattr at biofuels.coop (Matthew Rudolf) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 00:15:56 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fwd: Coal documentary screening CCCC Sat. Jan 27th 8 pm References: Message-ID: <4E38996B-A041-4F7E-B7FF-DCD4A6ADFA4D@biofuels.coop> Begin forwarded message: > > Subject: Coal documentary screening CCCC Sat. Jan 27th 8 pm > > The movie "Kilowatt Ours" exploded the clean coal myth, now learn > more and meet the West Virginia activists who are trying to save > our mountains from destruction. > > Haw River Films presents > "Mountain Top Removal" > Documentary Screening > Central Carolina Community College, Multipurpose Room > 64 West, Pittsboro > Saturday January 27th 8 pm (doors open 7 pm) > Free admission but donations accepted > > If you use electricity, you?re connected to Mountain Top Removal. > Explore the true cost of coal powered electrical energy on the > people and mountains of Southern Appalachia. > > Throughout southern Appalachia, Mountain Top Removal coal mining > is on the rise blasting and leveling highland forests and streams. > The process literally changes the geology of the region. Citizens > negatively impacted by the resulting flooding, pollution, and > destruction of their homes are fighting back to oppose big coals > impact on their lives and communities. > > After the screening Larry Gibson of Kayford Mt., WV and Dave Cooper > of the Mountain Top Removal Road Show will answer questions. > > "Mountain Top Removal" was shown on PBS affiliative KET TV Kentucky > on Jan 14th, and will be shown on WNED, Buffalo NY, on Jan 29th. > > More info at > http://www.hawriverfilms.com/ > > Please forward this message to friends or co-workers who need to > see this movie. Matthew Rudolf Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop From john.bonitz at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 12:01:04 2007 From: john.bonitz at gmail.com (John Bonitz) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:01:04 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] a contrarian view of the recent "food versus fuel" debate Message-ID: <84a57a420701290901k44da415fj67b124c0480707bf@mail.gmail.com> Dear friends, I always enjoy a good contrarian view. So this one grabbed my attention, as regards the debate over increasing ethanol production, demand for corn, and rising food prices. By the way, I hold no investments in ethanol, so don't flame me. ;-) It's worth a quick read. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/columnists/16556499.htm "Corn tortillas prices rose sharply over the last year. U.S. corn prices also rose over the same time. Therefore many conclude, high corn prices are driving up the cost of food for the poor. This is a particularly attractive conclusion for those who worry that increased ethanol use will increase hunger by sharply boosting grain prices. Corn prices indeed have risen very sharply. Current prices at local elevators across the Corn Belt are about twice as high as in January 2006. Increased corn use by ethanol distilleries seems a major factor in this price rise. Tortilla prices increased nearly 20 percent. If corn prices have doubled, this surely must be the cause. Ergo, ethanol is starving the poor. In isolation, the relative increase in corn prices is misleading, however. Consider absolute prices. Country elevator prices increased from roughly $1.75 to $3.60 per bushel over the last year. On a per-pound basis, corn increased from 3.3 cents per pound to 7.3 cents. Tortilla prices rose from some 34 cents per pound to 41 cents. So U.S. corn price increases did equal about half the rise in tortilla prices. But raw corn is only a fifth of the total cost of a tortilla. There is more to the story, however. Just as the Fed's rate increases were from an abnormally low base, so was the rise in corn prices." Cheers! John -- John Bonitz Silk Hope, NC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From wrenchwench at blast.com Mon Jan 29 13:32:55 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:32:55 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fwd: F.Y.I. ... Biodiesel News ... January 29, 2007 References: Message-ID: <3390476C-337F-43CC-A73B-B80A31FEAF25@blast.com> Begin forwarded message: Monday, January 29, 2007 ? BioFuels Journal Website ? Subscribe > > > $100 Million Funding Could Make Seattle, WA-Based Imperium > Renewables a Leader in the Biodiesel Industry > > GreenWay Bioenergy CEO Calls for Legislation to Revive Arkansas' > Fledgling Biodiesel Industry > > Arizona Biofuels' 5 MMGY Biodiesel Plant Near Tucson, AZ Nears > Completion > > General Biodiesel Begins Production at 10 MMGY Biodiesel Plant in > Mt. Vernon, WA > > > > > Cetane Energy Receives $1.1 Million Loan from City of Carlsbad, NM > for a Proposed 20 MMGY Biodiesel Plant > > Star Oilco Opens Biodiesel Pump in Tigard, OR > > Baltimore Biodiesel Breaks Ground Jan. 26 on $4 Million Biodiesel > Plant in Princess Anne, MD > > Nova Biofuels Buys Nearly $3 Million of Land in Seneca, IL for > Proposed 60 MMGY Biodiesel Plant > > > > Dakota Skies Biodiesel Sells Minot, SD 60 MMGY Biodiesel Plant to > NY-Based Kinetic Group > > LC Biofuels LLC Opens Biodiesel Retail Pump in San Anselmo, CA > > Missouri Senate Considers Bill to Require All Diesel Fuel Sold in > the State to Contain 5% Biodiesel > > National Biodiesel Board Calls President Bush's New Renewable Fuels > Strategy a Bold Move > > > > > Portsmouth, VA Eyed for a Proposed $50 Million Biodiesel Plant > > Nebraska Soybean Association Applauds State's Biodiesel Tax Credit > Bill > > NexSun Energy Plans to Build a 30 MMGY Biodiesel Plant in Grant > County, KS > > Florida-Based Xenerga Seeks Chicago, IL Area Plant to Convert > Cooking Oil into Biodiesel > > > > > BioFuels Journal is a quarterly magazine for the ethanol and > biodiesel industries... published in Decatur, IL ... > 800-728-7511 ... website: www.biofuelsjournal.com > Unsubscribe to this Newsletter > > From wrenchwench at blast.com Mon Jan 29 21:33:47 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:33:47 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] From the State Energy Office Message-ID: <7CA333CC-52C1-411E-9A21-DACF8B662749@blast.com> Greetings SEO partners: Below, you will find information on current and upcoming solicitations, event announcements, and opportunities to nominate your programs for awards. You can find these and other funding opportunities at http:// www.energync.net. 1. Solar America Initiative (SAI) Market Transformation: Solar City Strategic Partnerships This Funding Opportunity Announcement is seeking to form strategic partnerships with U.S. cities as part of the U.S. Department of Energy?s (DOE?s) SAI MT. These partnerships are intended to help accelerate the adoption of solar technology at the local level by engaging city governments, as important end users of energy, key intermediaries to other end users within their jurisdiction, and regulatory entities. It is critical that the city express a commitment to a city-wide approach to integration of solar energy into city planning and processes, as well as to large-scale implementation of solar technologies between now and 2015. The deadline for this solicitation was recently re-opened and extended to February 21, 2007. more... 2. Solar America Initiative (SAI) Market Transformation: Solar America Showcases The purpose of Solar America Showcases (SAS) is to accelerate demand for solar technologies among key end use market sectors. Under this activity, DOE will provide Technical Assistance to large-scale (in excess of 100kW), high-visibility solar installation projects that have the ability to impact the market for solar technologies through large project size, use of a novel solar technology, and/or use of a novel application for a solar technology. In addition, it is desired that the project be replicable or have replicable components. It is not expected that all projects will meet all of these parameters, but projects would ideally reflect some or most of these qualities. Large- scale installations may include photovoltaic, concentrating solar power, and solar water heating applications. The deadline for this solicitation was recently re-opened and extended to March 30, 2007. more... 3. Office of FreedomCar and Vehicle Technologies- Area of Interest 1: E85 Optimized Engine The Department of Energy is seeking applications for consideration of financial support through a cooperative agreement in the area of (or for) optimized ethanol flexible fuel light duty vehicles. Currently U.S. automobile manufacturers produce flexible fuel vehicles that can operate as flexible fuel vehicles (FFV) which can operate on any blend of ethanol and gasoline from zero to eighty-five percent ethanol. Ethanol has unique properties that are not fully exploited in current technology FFVs. It is the intent of this announcement to undertake research and development projects that will result in FFVs that offer the ability to exploit the favorable properties of the ethanol gasoline blends. more... 4. The deadline to nominate an individual or agency for a North Carolina Leadership in Sustainable Energy Award is February 9. The North Carolina Leadership in Sustainable Energy Awards are presented annually at the N.C. Sustainable Energy Conference to entities and individuals that have made an outstanding contribution in helping North Carolina achieve its sustainability goals. In 2007, five Leadership in Sustainable Energy Awards will be presented in the areas of: Renewable Energy Alternative Fuels Energy Efficiency Economic Development Environmental Stewardship From wrenchwench at blast.com Tue Jan 30 13:56:21 2007 From: wrenchwench at blast.com (Rachel Burton) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:56:21 -0500 Subject: [Biofuels_Interest_Group] Fwd: ethanol coversion kit References: <45BF9008.7020208@netzero.net> Message-ID: <0F800E3B-F0B5-4058-B09E-4157B4CD26AE@blast.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: Denton Conrad > Date: January 30, 2007 1:35:52 PM EST > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > Subject: ethanol coversion kit > > "We can now announce that we have just received the first approval > from > the EPA?s National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory, covering > the OBD II testing." > > http://www.intelligentethanolsystems.com/epaupdates.htm > > *Ethanol Conversion Kit receives first approval from EPA > > * Intelligent Ethanol Systems, LLC of Chesterland Ohio has just > received the first approval from the EPA?s National Vehicle and > Fuel Emissions Laboratory, covering the OBD II testing. To date, > they are the only company in the industry to obtain this approval. > > This is important because ultimate EPA approval takes away any > doubts about regulatory restrictions on the E 85 conversion kit > manufactured by Intelligent Ethanol Systems, LLC. > > This kit can be installed in just about any car or truck and will > allow that vehicle to run on either ethanol based fuel (E85) or > petroleum based fuel. The kit is safe, and can be installed by a > mechanic in less than an hour. It is made in the US. > > Ethanol is much cleaner and is a renewable energy source. In most > areas, the cost of E85 is less than petroleum based fuel and the > future price of E85 is projected to go down whereas the cost of > petroleum based fuel is expected to rise. Use of E85 allows a car > to run more efficiently and actually increases the car?s horsepower. > > Ethanol based E85 is projected to be the future of fuel in America. > The Intelligent Ethanol Systems Conversion Kit will allow this > movement to develop without delay. >